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(04:10:49 PM) ***emanuele is working on too many incompatible things at the same time...meh

(07:20:01 PM) emanuele: Norv: https://github.com/emanuele45/Dialogo/commit/b4fc97c2fc47fb0d05e9f5bb1253dd93f5c2bdb9 overkill?
(07:30:46 PM) Norv: The first classes seem collection classes. We might use an utility collection class, available as a .subs?
(07:32:40 PM) Norv: Re: hidden fields. I'd like to propose something else: to use a generic form to handle any display of forms and process user input.
(07:38:18 PM) emanuele: ohh, that would probably help for issue #227 quite a bit

(07:40:43 PM) emanuele: at the moment create it would mean re-write most of the forms, but if you plan to add something like that then we (you ) have to rewrite them (or at least most of them anyway...
(07:40:46 PM) emanuele: am I wrong?
(07:46:16 PM) Norv: Yes, it means rewrite most (all we want) of the forms. I didn't exactly plan to add it to Elk right now, but that TimeVortex over there bugged me about it, and the rework of controllers went in the same direction: we can now replace the so-called "Settings_Form" basic class with a generic Form, based on the Compuart's Class-Form [...]
(07:47:12 PM) emanuele: lol
(07:47:26 PM) emanuele: it's always someone else's fault, I know.
(07:50:27 PM) Norv: Rewriting user-data gathering pages to use a generic form is quite easy, but yes, a lot of work. What makes sense to me (and if I can find time, I'll propose it as soon as possible) is to rewrite the same settings forms we've been dealing with lately. Because they're already quite "ready" and separated, with handling in one place (ok, two places) atm, and very similar
(07:52:15 PM) Norv: And, of course! But that's not important.
(07:53:16 PM) Norv: It's like your lists. We rewrite whatever we like, and remove a template in the process.
(07:53:27 PM) Norv: tempts
(08:00:22 PM) emanuele: yep, yep, I was just wondering if it is worth rewrite them now (at least buggy since it is code I write ) and then rewrite them again later for the final version...
(08:03:43 PM) Norv: Hey. It's not that, but what you mean, is that I should try to focus on this and propose a workable version as soon as possible, see if you like it.

(08:11:50 PM) Norv: emanuele: so far, is admin generally understandable? How do you feel about the direction it's taking?
(08:14:42 PM) Norv: I don't "plan" to do the same with the other controllers soon. (though who knows). I mean, it is, at the limit, acceptable to me, for us to ship 1.0 with a quite different admin core internal design and implementation, than the rest. Hopefully admin playing around will be the direction that big addons can and will take. Then we can rewrite the rest in time for Elk core.

(08:33:41 PM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/bLI3xg
(08:33:41 PM) elk_core: Elkarte/master fd594e8 Norv: Tweak index.php doc....

(09:22:51 PM) elk_core: [Elkarte] eurich opened pull request #287: refactoring manage mails. (master...refactor_managemail)  http://git.io/yFYKow

(09:28:31 PM) emanuele: Norv, TBH I haven't looked at admin code...

(10:14:53 PM) Norv: oh, TE is working on refactoring on the admin classes, better encapsulation and separation of low-level code
(10:16:02 PM) Dragooon: Interestin!
(10:44:43 PM) Norv: I had committed a quite basic reworking of admin code. He makes it more as it should be

(11:04:02 PM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv pushed 5 new commits to master: http://git.io/lRVWSQ
(11:04:02 PM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 18b94d3 Thorsten Eurich: refactoring manage mails....
(11:04:02 PM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 7444758 Thorsten Eurich: typo ... thanks Norv ...
(11:04:02 PM) elk_core: Elkarte/master e8b0964 Thorsten Eurich: remove unused parameter from list_getMailQueueSize .. Thanks Norv ...

(08:04:51 PM) Norv: On another note, may I ask (I know I'm annoying you), is it possible to try over on elk.net your white-ish theme?
(08:05:23 PM) emanuele: well...yes, but is still pretty broken...
(08:05:57 PM) Norv: That thing sits on my brainz pretty badly. I might do it myself (but you don't want that!!), because I feel we need to experiment with the new look
(08:06:43 PM) Norv: I like the white-ish (always did, well for a long time anyway)

(09:30:41 PM) emanuele: white-theme: if you want just the css I think I can try to take it out from the commits, it shouldn't be too difficult (also because I tried to do all the "structural" changes using js and jquery)

(09:50:39 PM) Norv: emanuele: Re: white-theme: I didn't mean only css. What commits? I am totally willing (and excited) to try it anyway, up to you to say/choose whatever you like from it
(09:52:40 PM) ***emanuele is killing a 1px jomp in the dropdown menu area
(09:54:46 PM) Norv: Think of it this way: if we use it we'll grumble and fix it . You don't need it to be "omg perfectly working" before
(10:52:02 PM) Norv: what better way is there, to fix it, than to use it?

(11:14:40 PM) emanuele: mmm...is there any simple way to "share" the branch between the two repos?
(11:16:30 PM) Norv: Add the repos as remotes, and push the branch to both remotes?
(11:16:54 PM) emanuele: but they have different structure
(11:17:06 PM) Norv: what repos are they?
(11:17:14 PM) emanuele: elk and elk.net
(11:17:53 PM) Norv: Ah. The subfolder is the problem
(11:18:26 PM) emanuele: I suppose I just have to keep the history in my repo and push to elk.net just once in a while...
(11:19:06 PM) Norv: Mmm. We have more options... Lets see..we can pick whatever we want for elk.net, so make it easier
(11:19:38 PM) Norv: 1. you can initialize a repo in /elk, with elk remote. And pull from the remote
(11:19:49 PM) Norv: then commit to elk.net
(11:21:31 PM) Norv: 2. /elk can be a submodule (I actually made it first that way) which means 1) is straightforward, it's just the way it works.
(11:23:59 PM) emanuele: ...I just have to re-do everything after Spuds updates... index.css is just one big conflict... lol
(11:25:02 PM) Norv: btw, what do you use for conflicts diff/merge? I just love the combination Cola Git plus Meld
(11:26:01 PM) Norv: it's a breeze, because Cola opens a three-way merge in Meld
(11:26:33 PM) emanuele: mmm...no, that's again one of my commits that it always give me problems during rebase...

(11:41:25 PM) emanuele: take it.

(11:41:26 PM) elk_net [~elk_net@router1-ext.rs.github.com] entered the room.
(11:41:26 PM) elk_net: [elkarte.net] emanuele45 opened pull request #1: You wanted it (master...minimalist_white)  http://git.io/z22nfA
(11:41:26 PM) elk_net left the room.

(11:41:45 PM) emanuele: darn fast this bot!
(11:44:28 PM) Norv:
(11:44:42 PM) Norv: Oh so fast! Thank you!

(11:47:06 PM) elk_net: [elkarte.net] norv pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/TITgBw
(11:47:07 PM) elk_net: elkarte.net/master f75bc33 emanuele: Minimalist white theme - first draft...
(11:47:07 PM) elk_net: elkarte.net/master 4a01617 Norv: Merge pull request #1 from emanuele45/minimalist_white...

(12:05:50 AM) Trekkie101: Whats this minimalist white stuff ?
(12:05:55 AM) Trekkie101: Do share, do share
(12:06:34 AM) Norv: New theme for elk
(12:06:52 AM) Norv: Take a look at the link if you want
(12:07:14 AM) Trekkie101: What link?
(12:07:17 AM) Trekkie101: The git one?
(12:07:20 AM) Norv: yes
(12:07:42 AM) Trekkie101: It doesnt have screenshots
(12:08:06 AM) Trekkie101: and unlike you neonorv I can't read the matrix
(12:08:58 AM) Norv: Ah lol!! Well, if you wish you can grab it from the elk.net repo https://github.com/elkarte/elkarte.net
(12:09:36 AM) Norv: and we install it on the site
(12:09:54 AM) Trekkie101: Is it on the site though?
(12:10:02 AM) Trekkie101: Also any way do download the zip of just the theme ?
(12:10:12 AM) Norv: please note that it's wip, not supposed to be finished
(12:10:24 AM) Norv: Mmm. Give me a moment.
(12:10:31 AM) emanuele: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/514/screen91b.png
(12:10:54 AM) emanuele: arg I forgot to add back the go up/down... lol
(12:11:41 AM) Trekkie101: Oh thats nice
(12:12:06 AM) Trekkie101: Delicate
(12:13:00 AM) emanuele: it's basically the first time I try to modify a theme...well, the second, the first was on 1.1... lol
(12:13:53 AM) Trekkie101: Well it looks good
(12:15:13 AM) emanuele:
(12:15:45 AM) emanuele: It's not yet as clean as I would like (i.e. I have to remove several other things... )
(12:16:37 AM) Trekkie101: Im interested

(12:20:08 AM) emanuele: mmm...Norv, should we add a "quote to PM" too?
(12:20:44 AM) Norv: if you want
(12:27:53 AM) emanuele: not in particular, my mind was just running wild...
(12:28:39 AM) emanuele: I just started the merged_notice branch, I remember I already did in the past and it was not so straightforward...

(12:32:33 AM) Norv: Serious question: does anyone actually use 'previous/next topic' links?
(12:32:49 AM) Trekkie101: Nope
(12:32:55 AM) Trekkie101: But I'd use a NEXT PAGE link
(12:33:11 AM) Trekkie101: Top/NEXT
(12:33:24 AM) Norv: Next page of the current topic, right?
(12:33:34 AM) Trekkie101: yup
(12:33:42 AM) Trekkie101: Its very odd that it doesn't do this
(12:34:13 AM) Norv: Makes sense. It has the '1 2 3' thingie, but those are harder to find and click

(12:33:59 AM) Trekkie101: Also just before I run out the door but on this topic
(12:34:11 AM) Trekkie101: No-one actually changes their preferences in profile
(12:34:22 AM) Trekkie101: Like posts per page etc

(12:34:31 AM) emanuele: I think some use them, not by clicking, but through the browser's internal handling
(12:35:03 AM) emanuele: but I have no figures to support that feeling
(12:35:04 AM) Trekkie101: We could expose that functionality somehow, like a tip bubble that pops up
(12:35:08 AM) Norv: the 1, 2, 3, Ema, or the prev/next ?
(12:35:14 AM) emanuele: prev/next

(12:35:28 AM) Trekkie101: "Hey are there enough messages for you here, or would you prefer to see more or less per page"
(12:35:36 AM) ***Trekkie101 runs to go get the girlfriend from work

(12:35:37 AM) emanuele: the <link rel="next" href I think
(12:35:43 AM) Norv: Trekkie101: roger, not sure how, but yes
(12:36:02 AM) Norv: Ah ok. That's probably right, ema
(12:37:13 AM) Norv: but the thing is, I don't see a discussion forum users using too much random topics
(12:37:30 AM) Norv: I mean, navigation to 'prev/next' is blind navigation
(12:37:36 AM) Norv: you don't even see the title
(12:37:39 AM) Norv: it's odd
(12:38:04 AM) Norv: I think people want to read *something*, a particular subject they want to know about
(12:38:33 AM) Norv: if it's prev or next, is not relevant info for choosing what to read

(12:38:35 AM) elk_core [~elk_core@router1-ext.rs.github.com] entered the room.
(12:38:36 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] Spuds opened pull request #288: Minor template / theme / html5 fixes (master...bumpsalongtheway)  http://git.io/PAjFEg
(12:38:36 AM) elk_core left the room.

(12:39:10 AM) emanuele: yes, that for sure
(12:39:22 AM) Norv: Not sure if I express my feeling clearly here. (of course, we could display the subject, but it's still chosen by prev/next criterion)

(12:40:25 AM) emanuele: and also it would require some more db work, since the prev/next at the moment are special actions that don't even know the topic id
(12:42:05 AM) Norv: I think that's a bit unfortunate, because hey, it's the display page, the most used
(12:44:48 AM) Norv: though I guess it could be in a measure cached. But dunno if it's worth doing it at all. I'd rather support giving it up, or make sure it's optional and disabled by default - I think what I'm trying to say is that it's more for a "blog"-type of reading, than a forum-type of reading... If topic first posts would be tagged by semantic category, and prev/next would give you the next by meaning, well maybe

(12:46:11 AM) emanuele: you may see it in action a wedge
(12:47:08 AM) emanuele: I've never used it (not that I browsed it extensively), though from time to time I'm confused by the fact that there are three titles in a row
(01:05:25 AM) Norv: Right, it's interesting as done on wedge. At least you know if the 'next' might interest you, in case it does you're saved a trip to message index. OTOH, it's still random chance: since it's chosen chronologically, it seems fit for blog-type or annoucement-type boards, less other general discussions.

(12:48:41 AM) emanuele: darn, with that the redirect is becoming a pretty used (sub)template...

(01:02:15 AM) elk_core [~elk_core@router1-ext.rs.github.com] entered the room.
(01:02:15 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv pushed 6 new commits to master: http://git.io/5xmqeg
(01:02:15 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 62d8e8f Spuds: ! missing " ...
(01:02:15 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master c779c8b Spuds: ! classic update for avatars...
(01:02:15 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 3963e4a Spuds: ! tweak the followups button placement...
(01:02:15 AM) elk_core left the room.

(01:03:25 AM) TehCraw: Cool github notifications.
(01:06:08 AM) Norv: Yup, we haz a spammer in the channel
(01:11:18 AM) Norv: (as if Ema wasn't bugged enough by only me)

(05:56:17 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/D_m3ng
(05:56:17 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 94d9b92 Norv: Playing with errors. With error strings, I mean....
(05:56:17 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 0b13a21 Norv: Tweak documentation....
(05:56:17 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master daa6bb9 Norv: Merge pull request #286 from norv/errors...

(06:17:24 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/fyFQXg
(06:17:24 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 03c9455 Spuds: ! I think this puts these templates back to what they were before the last merge undid a bunch of work ... tl;dr github sucks...
(06:17:24 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master bfe52e1 Spuds: ! fat fingered that one ... at least it worked ...
(06:17:24 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master cae4d0a Norv: Merge pull request #290 from Spuds/bumpsalongtheway...

(08:23:12 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] eurich opened pull request #292: Refactor AdminDebug & AdminLog (master...refactor_admin_debug)  http://git.io/_LGc6Q
(08:27:07 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv pushed 12 new commits to master: http://git.io/zwwQNQ
(08:27:07 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 52a247f Thorsten Eurich: unused globals...
(08:27:07 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master dae97dd Thorsten Eurich: methods visibility...
(08:27:07 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 5deb37a Thorsten Eurich: cleanup...
(08:43:09 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv opened pull request #293: Fix copyright notice. (master...admindebug_copyright)  http://git.io/aW-ZnA

(08:50:28 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/3q8USw
(08:50:28 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 8565737 Norv: Fix copyright notice. New file with nothing copyrightable yet. There is nothing copyrightable in a select query with two params....
(08:50:28 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master f501bb1 Norv: Merge pull request #293 from norv/admindebug_copyright...

(08:44:46 AM) groundup: What software runs elk_core?
(08:58:41 AM) Norv: groundup: it's a github hook. This is the code: https://github.com/github/github-services/blob/master/lib/services/irc.rb. It is deployed on github.com, you can enable it from the repo admin settings.

(01:46:42 PM) elk_themes: [themes] norv pushed 25 new commits to master: http://git.io/ICo2_g
(01:46:43 PM) elk_themes: themes/master 3eaf1c4 enyst: Alien theme files....
(01:46:43 PM) elk_themes: themes/master b29470b enyst: Add readme....
(01:46:43 PM) elk_themes: themes/master 51b53d7 enyst: Forgotten admin.css...

(01:50:28 PM) Trekkie101: Elk just went green
(01:50:33 PM) Trekkie101: Like NOW
(01:50:50 PM) Trekkie101: It doesn't surely update from git that fast?
(02:04:09 PM) Norv: No, I did it manually
(02:04:35 PM) Norv: That's a greenish color variation that was PRed for the themes repository
(02:05:19 PM) ***Norv is fast. Well, by mistake, I assure you.
(02:07:24 PM) Norv: engelnyst made a PR a while ago, though it seemed both unfinished and not get interest, dunno
(02:09:30 PM) Norv: Ohh theme selection is buggy.
(02:09:47 PM) Norv: That must be my doing... /checks

(02:45:29 PM) elk_core [~elk_core@router1-ext.rs.github.com] entered the room.
(02:45:29 PM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv opened pull request #294: Theme select (master...theme_fix)  http://git.io/j65LMg
(02:45:29 PM) elk_core left the room.

(04:23:03 PM) elk_themes: [themes] norv pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/GH4vQQ
(04:23:03 PM) elk_themes: themes/master 9805fab Norv: Updates to the current version for Alien....

(07:18:11 PM) elk_themes: [themes] norv pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/l8JTyg
(07:18:11 PM) elk_themes: themes/master 1c2c54e IchBin: ElkArte mobile theme...
(07:18:11 PM) elk_themes: themes/master 7a13ae0 Norv: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:elkarte/themes

(07:23:50 PM) elk_themes: [themes] norv pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ecbvCQ
(07:23:50 PM) elk_themes: themes/master 278fd2e Norv: Update to Elk information....

(07:50:43 PM) elk_core: [Elkarte] eurich opened pull request #295: Manage attachments refactoring (master...manage_attachments)  http://git.io/JU7TXw

(04/03/2013 12:01:02 AM) elk_core [~elk_core@router1-ext.rs.github.com] entered the room.
(12:01:02 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/x8k4Yw
(12:01:02 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 510d4f0 Spuds: ! I don't see how it was working calling settings...
(12:01:02 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 87ff53b Norv: Merge pull request #296 from Spuds/bumpsalongtheway...
(12:01:02 AM) elk_core left the room.


(12:08:55 AM) elk_core [~elk_core@router1-ext.rs.github.com] entered the room.
(12:08:55 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv pushed 8 new commits to master: http://git.io/mvNvWQ
(12:08:55 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 8f17fc1 Thorsten Eurich: basic cleanup (unused globals, empty lines, missing global..)...
(12:08:55 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 157541f Thorsten Eurich: Move functions to ManageAttachments subs......
(12:08:55 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 5c209fa Thorsten Eurich: Split db queries to their own function....

(04:15:17 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] Spuds opened pull request #297: Some more minor cleanup before I forget (master...bumpsalongtheway)  http://git.io/2j6tJQ

(05:24:56 AM) groundup: test
(05:25:11 AM) groundup: webchat.freenode.net is awesome... except when it doesn't keep me connected
(05:25:19 AM) groundup: and when I have to do their stupid CAPTCHA

(05:27:16 AM) groundup: Norv, http://www.infoq.com/news/2013/04/software-design-21st-century
(05:38:32 AM) groundup: Norv: is this something you guys might be interested in: http://screencast.com/t/OZ7Mhk1LBQS
(05:38:42 AM) groundup: It is essentially just a "does this work" checklist

(11:14:01 AM) elk_core: [Elkarte] norv pushed 6 new commits to master: http://git.io/KS8Ldg
(11:14:01 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master eb2b8ce Spuds: ! couple of unused globals...
(11:14:01 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master 61c07e7 Spuds: ! show the more button for the report to moderator action...
(11:14:01 AM) elk_core: Elkarte/master c5a2239 Spuds: ! while the key block is there, make sure its still 2x2 when they can't post and fred is not there...

(11:24:05 AM) Norv: groundup: what app is http://screencast.com/t/OZ7Mhk1LBQS ? And, have you used it, how do you feel it helps?
(11:25:48 AM) Norv: It looks pretty much as the suites made by sinan, apparently more managed.

(11:45:06 AM) Norv: Trekkie101: fixed. No, really, must be fixed.
(11:46:13 AM) Trekkie101: What have you fixed ?
(11:47:05 AM) Norv: Select themes on site. It wasn't updated from git, please see if it works though.
(11:50:25 AM) Trekkie101: Works

(12:10:01 PM) elk_themes: [themes] norv pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/PvBeeg
(12:10:01 PM) elk_themes: themes/master e1e90d7 Norv: Removed temporary placeholder....
(12:10:01 PM) elk_themes: themes/master 1d7afc9 Norv: Add Minimalist White theme....

(04:16:13 PM) emanuele: On the other hand...aren't we already late with our beta?
(04:16:15 PM) emanuele:
(04:16:57 PM) emanuele: wasn't it planned for end of March or something?
(04:18:16 PM) Norv: Yup. And I finally did (part one) of admin controllers EXACTLY on 31 March.
(04:18:34 PM) Norv: (I tried to merge it in March lol - no I'm joking )
(04:18:41 PM) emanuele: LOL
(04:18:48 PM) Norv: So it's April. Wha'?
(04:18:50 PM) emanuele: but the form thing?
(04:18:54 PM) emanuele:
(04:20:03 PM) emanuele: I mean is it set for 1.0?

(04:24:52 PM) Norv: Re: is it for 1.0: now that I got into it, I'd finish off several forms, and PR it. Actually "beta" doesn't depend on it, but the thing with 1.0 is that, at the level of design, I'd would really love it if it has the essential of the path we take, and the path for addons and themes.
(04:26:05 PM) emanuele: well, for beta at least have "the code" and one form... I think...no?
(04:26:12 PM) emanuele: (or "some code")
(04:27:37 PM) Norv: Well... it does end up this way, even if it doesnt need it... But lets see: one thing I would have liked to do, would be a quick chat on what we want for beta.

(04:28:07 PM) Norv: lets take it the other way around: what do we miss, to feel comfortable to release beta?
(04:28:41 PM) Norv: My answer: theme enough to know the look of Elk
(04:29:16 PM) emanuele: yeah, the look&feel is important

(04:58:39 PM) emanuele: oh, interesting bump: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=483878.0
(04:59:15 PM) emanuele: what do you think?

(05:35:53 PM) Norv: Re:sqlite: (quick thought before seeing all software and licensing stuff here, I am at the middle of the thread lol oops): can we get people to commit in github open licensed proposals/works? And go from there. I would love to see nend taking care of sqlite, he seems to already do that.