General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: emanuele on December 28, 2022, 11:43:31 am
Title: Wi-fi!
Post by: emanuele on December 28, 2022, 11:43:31 am
Dang, I'm lost.
I have to bring internet over a few meters and I banging my head against a couple of walls. :joy: I cannot realistically use a wired connection (I'd need something like 50 meters of cable to do a detour up to the roof, crawl under it, go down a stair, go back and forth, a mess), so I was thinking about using wifi, but the more I read the more I get discouraged. :sob: I was considering wifi mesh systems, but any decent one seems to cost quite a bit of euro, so I'm a bit worried that if at the end it doesn't work I'd end up with two of three expensive bits of plastic... Any experience with similar situations?
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: tino on December 28, 2022, 12:15:11 pm
I’m not sure I follow…
WiFi is quite stable now, and relatively good for close networks. Are you saying it won’t penetrate through the wall?
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: Steeley on December 28, 2022, 01:37:57 pm
It's the season to think about sharing emanuele.. If there is power anywhere between the modem and hoped for point of use, use wired to get to a wifi router at that power point and wireless from there. I have 150' of Cat 5 cable running from my cable modem to a wifi router in just that sort of configuration to cover a 225 foot distance - the last 75' is wireless.
Another option is a wifi range extender. But again, the first thing is electrical power for the device.
BTW, most equipment sellers have a return policy - if it doesn't work, send it back for a refund. (Amazon - Europe?)
Last, if there is power near the point of use, a cellular modem. They're about $100-$150 US (depending on the cell service provider), plus, of course, a monthly data plan through that provider. In a pinch, most cell phones nowadays (including my flip phone), has the ability to act as a "hot-spot".
A little more detail about the environment (direct distance, obstacles, and resources along the way between network access point and point of use) may elicit a more specific recommendation.
Worst case, Elon Musk has Starlink Satellites .. "follow the rabbit!" 🐰🐰
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: emanuele on December 28, 2022, 04:06:39 pm
heh, yeah not many details. :D
So:
I have 2 walls in between and about 10 meters in between the start and the end point, they are technically two different buildings,
on 2.4GHz the signal power barely reaches the end-point, on 5GHz if I keep the window open at the end-point I get a decent signal, if I keep it closed the signal completely disappear,
between the router and the end-point on the powerline there are about a couple of breakers (actually I think three), I'm not sure if EoP works in that config. :-\ Technically, though, I may have 1 pair of cables that goes from close enough to the router up to the other end, but 1) they just connect switches, so it may work only if one continuous cable is enough for PoE, and 2) despite being close to the router it would still be a couple of rooms apart, no direct wiring between the router and the PoE device, not sure how that would play,
I would avoid mobile devices because I 1) I'd avoid having another permanent cost, and 2) connection is generally pretty :poop:
Problem for the ethernet wire is not much the length, more the path... starting from the router I'd have to: move up into the roof (drilling it somehow, along with the insulation coating), go straight over a couple of rooms and out for a few meters, then down a stair and something, "jump" to another roof, move across it and finally enter somehow into the other building... quite the last resort :joy_cat:
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: tino on December 28, 2022, 05:09:34 pm
That doesn’t make sense with regards 2.4GHz vs 5GHz. 2.4GHz will penetrate through walls easier than 5GHz but be slower in general.
You can get line of sight devices from ubiquiti, if you can mount something on an external wall. They work very well and I’ve used them for up to 2 miles before.
Power line might work, but I’d avoid it unless you’re the only one near as others can easily high Jack off the network. It doesn’t stop at your consumer unit.
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: Spuds on December 28, 2022, 07:04:52 pm
10 meters is not very far, is the signal going though some masonry walls?
I'd ensure the current wifi router is not set to a low power mode. Then make sure there is not an obvious obstacle between you and it, such as a mirror, or metal cabinet, or?
Failing that I'd just try a simple extender, assuming you had access to the 5 meter area to place it.
Using the electrical wiring across two buildings seems like a real crap shoot TBH. If those wires do not have a common distribution area, plus across buildings / residents there are some security issues to consider.
Last resort, forcibly take residence of where the wifi access point is, if that battle is lost ... move ;)
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: Steeley on December 28, 2022, 07:46:27 pm
Before you pack your bags, look into something like the Tenda AC1200 WiFi Range Extender (if you want cheap - $22 US).
Some devices can bridge a marginal signal and extend the range dramatically as shown in the diagram. It may even be possible to locate the extender in the remote building. Plus it can be used as a wired router from its location as well.
Considerations:- 50 or 60hz power? (This particular model runs just on 120AC 60hz. Pretty sure an Amazon search in the EU will have EU-compatible models -i.e. NETGEAR Wi-Fi Extender EX6120 $40US ). Can you access it for set up via computer, or does it require a smart-phone app? (This one uses your browser) Bands - this model works on either 2.4G (@300 mps) or 5G (@900 mps), or both simultooneously (for @1200 mps) How many devices will try to connect to it? [net-speed impact, not signal strength, but if the signal is weak to begin with a lot of devices can affect connectivity, not just throughput.]
One 'trick'.. link the extender while it's close to the router. Then, once link is established and settings in memory, relocate it closer to where you will access it. When you plug it back in it takes only a few seconds in its new location to show you it's linked to the modem or not.
Last - if it just doesn't work, and you decide to return it for another unit, do a factory reset on it before sending it back. (It's always good to do a factory reset when you first get it, too, before setting it up).
FUN STORY: A friend had one, to work in his garage. Occasionally he'd lose connection, and isolated it to when his wife was vacuuming. At first he thought it was interference from the vacuum cleaner, but finally figured out his wife would unplug the unit to plug in the vacuum cleaner. "Thought it was an air-freshener or electronic rodent repeller or something."
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: ahrasis on December 28, 2022, 09:47:46 pm
I'd go for ethernet cabling but will try to avoid unnecessary drilling.
Basically the best to connect between buildings is fibre optic cabling but you might need extra adapters / converters from ethernet to fibre optic and vice versa.
If you could provide some drawings of the floors and building plans, that might be helpful.
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: emanuele on January 03, 2023, 04:01:46 pm
Quote from: tino – That doesn’t make sense with regards 2.4GHz vs 5GHz. 2.4GHz will penetrate through walls easier than 5GHz but be slower in general.
2.4 and 5 with windows closed: 2.4 very weak signal, 5 no signal at all 2.4 and 5 with windows open: 2.4 no idea, but I guess very good signal, 5 decent signal
Quote from: Spuds – 10 meters is not very far, is the signal going though some masonry walls?
Yes indeed: a 30cm on one side (with the main power cables passing in) and a... 20/25cm on the other side. And wood frames windows on one side and aluminium frames on the other.
Quote from: Spuds – Failing that I'd just try a simple extender, assuming you had access to the 5 meter area to place it.
I do have access, though it's open air at about 6 meters from ground. :joy:
Quote from: Spuds – Using the electrical wiring across two buildings seems like a real crap shoot TBH. If those wires do not have a common distribution area, plus across buildings / residents there are some security issues to consider.
Last resort, forcibly take residence of where the wifi access point is, if that battle is lost ... move ;)
Well, both buildings belong to me, I'm just trying to find a way to connect them. :D They are just old and very poorly connected. :-\ They are placed one in front of the other at the 1st and 2nd floor respectively, it's just a really messy disposition. I leave where the access point is, and would like to set up an office-like space in the other.
For now I have thrown away a few euro to buy a pair of powerline things, after I reviewed the power cabling, I realized I should be able to bring a pair of electric cables from other building close enough to the router, I'll give it a try... :fingers_crossed:
And now the only thing left is make it so that linux doesn't run the fans of this computer like crazy so that I can get back to coding... I miss it!! :sob: (And I can't figure out how to replicate the way I was writing code on the old machine under windows, so I kind of need linux. :smirk:
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: Spuds on January 03, 2023, 09:47:02 pm
My house is brick, and that tends to kill the wifi. I had to add extra access points just to get coverage inside the house. In my area there is no wired high speed so I had to go with Starlink, been pretty good actually. When I first added its access point (in the garage), the signal in the house was terrible. Adding a repeater helped that a bunch, later I ran a wired ethernet to my router, a little commando time in the attic was all that was required (well that and the 40' trench I dug to bury the cable going to the dish)
PLC technology is not used much around here, but at least by me my UPC trips at least 6 times a day, crazy power fluctuations, so that would not be an option for me LOL. f your PLC does not work, look at various outdoor access points that you can set up as repeaters, there are a bunch of bullet style ones that are
Quote from: emanuele – And now the only thing left is make it so that linux doesn't run the fans of this computer like crazy so that I can get back to coding... I miss it!! :sob:
I like that sound of that :D ... visual studio code on linux and never look back !
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: Steeley on January 03, 2023, 10:57:46 pm
Quote from: emanuele – 2.4 and 5 with windows closed: 2.4 very weak signal, 5 no signal at all 2.4 and 5 with windows open: 2.4 no idea, but I guess very good signal, 5 decent signal
Do the windows have some metallic tinting component to them? There should not be much signal attenuation through glass ( >@3db at 2.4G, >1db at 5G). Glass is better than most materials regarding attenuation.
You might find this document link to my main website < https://www.zardoz.com/files/E10589_Propagation_Losses_2_and_5GHz.pdf > helpful in an academic sort of way..
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: Spuds on January 04, 2023, 05:36:10 pm
Maybe they are the old leaded glass windows? @emanuele give those panes a :tongue: and let us know if it tastes a bit sweet :candy:
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: Steeley on January 04, 2023, 06:45:00 pm
Quote from: Spuds – Maybe they are the old leaded glass windows? @emanuele give those panes a :tongue: and let us know if it tastes a bit sweet :candy:
Wait until spring though..
Title: Re: Wi-fi!
Post by: emanuele on January 07, 2023, 07:30:05 am
lol
The windows have indeed an aluminium frame, so probably that's the biggest offender. I tested yesterday evening the poweline I bought and out of the box I get 10 to 20 MB/s with several "obstacles" in between (2 or 3 breakers in between), compared to the 180 I have next to the modem, so for now that's good enough. I'll try to bring some cable around in the future but at least I can start doing something. :D
Quote from: Spuds – My house is brick, and that tends to kill the wifi. I had to add extra access points just to get coverage inside the house. In my area there is no wired high speed so I had to go with Starlink, been pretty good actually. When I first added its access point (in the garage), the signal in the house was terrible. Adding a repeater helped that a bunch, later I ran a wired ethernet to my router, a little commando time in the attic was all that was required (well that and the 40' trench I dug to bury the cable going to the dish)
PLC technology is not used much around here, but at least by me my UPC trips at least 6 times a day, crazy power fluctuations, so that would not be an option for me LOL. f your PLC does not work, look at various outdoor access points that you can set up as repeaters, there are a bunch of bullet style ones that are
Quote from: emanuele – I like that sound of that :D ... visual studio code on linux and never look back !
Yeah, I'd love to be able to use linux again, problem is the laptop I bought has an nvidia graphics card, and an AMD integrated one. Using it with an external monitor (attached to an USB C, not sure if that is yet another problem) it uses the nvidia card to send the video signal and that warms it up a bit (I guess drivers and such), but when fans kick in, they start almost full-throttle making quite a bit of noise for a few minutes, and that's pretty annoying. And I still have to figure out how the heck to control their speed. :-\ I'll try to find a solution in the coming weeks, worst case I'll wipe clean the linux partition and use a VM. Actually, a while ago I was also looking into using the current linux partition inside a VM, that could be neat too.