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Beta 2 Feedback

I just wanted to give some feedback by letting everyone know what I think about Elkarte. Please keep in mind, this is the first time I've actually installed Elkarte. I can't say I'm that familair with SMF or it's forks anymore, as I don't use it or recommend it to my clients. I use so many different web applications that I just can't keep track of them all, and what does what. So If I overlook something, I apologize.

The thing I like most about Elkarte is the SPEED. I noticed that the perceived speed is the faster than any forum software I have ever used(just triumphed xenforo & nodebb). The thing I really appreciate, is the consistency of speed between a public live environment and an empty local installation. The speeds are pretty much the same. I'm suspicious of software that doesn't have consistent speeds, because it makes me feel like I might run into issues as the forum grows. Elkarte is even faster than SMF, so you guys did something right.

Other than that, I noticed likes, mentions, HTML5, and responsive design, which are all great, but pretty much standard nowadays.

Something I see missing is Microdata. Any reason you've chosen not to add this?

I also just noticed this: "You have an active admin session in place. We recommend to end this session once you have finished your administrative tasks.". This is kinda cool, and appreciative since it involved security. Although, I wonder is it really necessary? Does it really improve security to end the admin session? I still like it though, and tells me that Elkarte is serious about security.

Some of the woes I found about Elkarte is the non-cosmetic hover effects. There shouldn't be any, but I've already mentioned this across SMF & it's forks until I'm blue in the face. It doesn't seem to do much, as most user's prefer it.

I also not fond of the "core features" of the admin section. It's a waste of space, as those features should be moved elsewhere. SMF 2.1 has done this already, and it's better IMO.

Other than that there isn't much to say. I only spent about 15 minutes with it though. I like Elkarte(and the community better), but if I go into layout & design, this post would come out negative, so I'll keep those opinions to myself.

Good job guys.

Re: Beta 2 Feedback

Reply #1 –

QuoteSomething I see missing is Microdata. Any reason you've chosen not to add this?
It's just a lack of time ...  ;)  It's on my roadmap for 1.1.
Thorsten "TE" Eurich
------------------------

Re: Beta 2 Feedback

Reply #2 –

Quote from: TE –
QuoteSomething I see missing is Microdata. Any reason you've chosen not to add this?
It's just a lack of time ...  ;)  It's on my roadmap for 1.1.

Sounds far away for something that would only take about an 1-2 hours, but I understand everyone is busy.

Re: Beta 2 Feedback

Reply #3 –

Quote from: Xarcell – Sounds far away for something that would only take about an 1-2 hours, but I understand everyone is busy.
Huh, that's a bit optimistic I think ..

That schema list is long, and It's a bit more than just some article / blog details. We should probably use Person Details, Events, MediaObject (Attachments) and lots of more in various areas..
I doubt that's done in an hour  or two  ;)

If you still think you can do than in an hour (or two): Prove and send a PR ;)
Thorsten "TE" Eurich
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Re: Beta 2 Feedback

Reply #4 –

Quote from: TE –
Quote from: Xarcell – Sounds far away for something that would only take about an 1-2 hours, but I understand everyone is busy.
Huh, that's a bit optimistic I think ..

That schema list is long, and It's a bit more than just some article / blog details. We should probably use Person Details, Events, MediaObject (Attachments) and lots of more in various areas..
I doubt that's done in an hour  or two  ;)

If you still think you can do than in an hour (or two): Prove and send a PR ;)

I've been adding Microdata to all my projects for the past year. You can get about 80% of it done in about an hour. Then gradually add more here & there. I wouldn't overdo it though, because sometimes it can kill your readability of the html markup/source.

I do not have time to contribute to Elkarte. I have promised things to SMF that haven't been finished yet. Over there I promised to make a custom default avatar, but it can't be decided on what to use. Then I also promised to make a default avatar "set", which only SMF & it's forks can use. I've been kinda waiting on the default avatar to be decided on, in case they decide on a person, then I can make the avatar set to match. You can help make this decision here: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=517447

Re: Beta 2 Feedback

Reply #5 –

Xarcell, hiver effects are a-okay if they're mibile-friendly and they contribute in decluttering the screen to make it easier to find important areas.

I'm excited to find someone who's interested in perceived speed. Would you be so kind as to test Wedge and compare its local and remote perceived speeds to SMF and elkarte? I still think it's the fastest of the three on the frontend, but Arantor did many things to the back end where I'm not sure they slowed it down or not. Then recently I managed to gain some speed in the back end and I think it's getting good now. But because my server is currently underperforming, I don't know if it's my fault or something else.

Anyway, I'd be thrilled to see independent reviews about that. I think the fight between E and W could get cordially iiiinteresting. :-D

Re: Beta 2 Feedback

Reply #6 –

Quote from: Nao – Xarcell, hiver effects are a-okay if they're mibile-friendly and they contribute in decluttering the screen to make it easier to find important areas.

I'm excited to find someone who's interested in perceived speed. Would you be so kind as to test Wedge and compare its local and remote perceived speeds to SMF and elkarte? I still think it's the fastest of the three on the frontend, but Arantor did many things to the back end where I'm not sure they slowed it down or not. Then recently I managed to gain some speed in the back end and I think it's getting good now. But because my server is currently underperforming, I don't know if it's my fault or something else.

Anyway, I'd be thrilled to see independent reviews about that. I think the fight between E and W could get cordially iiiinteresting. :-D

I've tried to test wedge, but I cannot get it to install. I tried 2 days ago, and I tried an hour ago.

Re: Beta 2 Feedback

Reply #7 –

Can you be more specific..? There have been issues with the installer for the last few days, but I believe I've fixed all of them.
(Please post over at wedge.org if you need a quick answer. Plus, it's... not like ElkArte is a forum for Wedge support :P Unless it's related to the SMF importer, in which case it's about OpenImporter, which Elk also uses.)

Re: Beta 2 Feedback

Reply #8 –

I always post the errors on github.

I did get it working, and I think Elkarte is faster. I mean, at times I thought Wedge was slightly faster, but there were times it was definitely slower(2-3 second page loads). I wasn't sure what was going on with that, so I made sure I changed the jQuery fetch to local instead of Google CDN(in case it was my internet), but the inconsistencies were still there. Elkarte loaded at the same fast speed everytime.

I compared Elkarte & Wedge yslow statistics. Wedge blows Elkarte away in that department. So I can't figure out why it seems slower at times. I give you two thumbs up for minimized HTTP requests and excellent caching tough. It's hands down the best I've seen for a feature packed web application. In fact, I showed the stats to a friend without telling him what it was. He thought it was some new bare bones CMS or something, and was surprised when I told him it was a feature rich forum.

I got a pretty bad headache right now, but later tonight or tomorrow, and gonna reboot my PC and compare speeds again.

Re: Beta 2 Feedback

Reply #9 –

Quote from: Xarcell – I always post the errors on github.

I did get it working, and I think Elkarte is faster. I mean, at times I thought Wedge was slightly faster, but there were times it was definitely slower(2-3 second page loads).

Since we're talking about perceived speed, can you open up /core/html/index.template.php, and replace this line with that one..?

Code: [Select]
if (!we::is('ie8down') && isset($_SESSION['js_loaded']))
to...
Code: [Select]
if (false)

Basically, ignoring the whole 'load jQuery in the header' thing. This is something I added to make jQuery execution happen earlier, as long as we know it's cached on your hard drive. However, I'm wondering if this couldn't be the reason why it's slowing down your Wedge... I mean, ElkArte has it in the header as well, but I don't really know what else the software is doing that improves perceived rendering speed. It's either that, or your local machine takes a tad longer to ungzip your CSS and JS files, I don't know... (Try disabling gzipping for these files in the admin area's Server settings.)

If it's not that, then it must be the backend. But whatever I do to improve it on my side, I'm still left with code that dates mostly back to the Arantor era, and he was never much into speed optimizations. Still, I did a code review a month ago, and I didn't find any potential bottlenecks. Maybe I didn't try hard enough, I don't know... If anything, Wedge is a bit faster than before because I've removed most of the theme code.

Oh yes, maybe another clue for better speed...
In index.php, remove this line:
Code: [Select]
if (false && empty($db_show_debug))
Then upload, and on your site's main menu, click Admin > Purge cache.
It will screw up your line numbers in the error log, but it should make Wedge load about 5% faster. Not much, but anything's good to save some time... :P

QuoteI wasn't sure what was going on with that, so I made sure I changed the jQuery fetch to local instead of Google CDN(in case it was my internet), but the inconsistencies were still there. Elkarte loaded at the same fast speed everytime.
This is probably related to caching, but this was my main focus during my code review. :-\
Another possibility would be to go to the admin area, and in Server > Cache, set the cache system to 'Session based', instead of 'File based'. (Or just disable, if you're curious, but just as in ElkArte, it'll make pages much slower. ;))

QuoteI compared Elkarte & Wedge yslow statistics. Wedge blows Elkarte away in that department.
Yep, I spent a good deal of time in 2011 optimizing the HTML for YSlow and Google PageSpeed high scores. There are several topics related to that, Wedge is simply (or was, at the time) the highest scorer in that area, and you can improve that score even more. For instance, in Pretty URLs, you can set up some custom URL replacements, if I didn't remove that feature in the meantime. This allows you to redirect /assets/ to, for instance, assets.mydomain.com. Provided it's a cookie-less subdomain, you'll get better speeds on first page loads, and Google will be happier. (However, because once the files are cached, the htaccess files do their best to prevent you from re-downloading them, subsequent page loads will only be a bit slower, because of the extra few bytes in the links. Not that it matters much, though... I'm still going to do that subdomain thing at one point.)

QuoteSo I can't figure out why it seems slower at times. I give you two thumbs up for minimized HTTP requests and excellent caching tough.
Thanks. It's all ideas that were flying around at the time, it just never made it into SMF or ElkArte. But I'm sure the Elk devs will do that at some point, because spriting...?? Maybe Pete likes that one, but it doesn't have any point, apart from support for IE<8.

QuoteIt's hands down the best I've seen for a feature packed web application. In fact, I showed the stats to a friend without telling him what it was. He thought it was some new bare bones CMS or something, and was surprised when I told him it was a feature rich forum.
Thanks, that made my day. 8)

QuoteI got a pretty bad headache right now, but later tonight or tomorrow, and gonna reboot my PC and compare speeds again.
Keep me posted! (Here, or at wedge.org, or at github.)