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Poll

Name the buttons - win a case of beer!

Call the staff button "Staff"
[ 0 ] (0%)
Call the staff button "Manage"
[ 6 ] (42.9%)
Call it something else (please specify)
[ 1 ] (7.1%)
Call the user's button "Personal"
[ 0 ] (0%)
Call the user's button by the username
[ 4 ] (28.6%)
Call it something else (please specify)
[ 3 ] (21.4%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Topic: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal (Read 47846 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Re: Linktree and Dropmenu arr...
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Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #75

Well if people want all the user stuff at top right, labelled by user name, it's going to have to be one button for pm's and profile.
Master of Expletives: Now with improved family f@&king friendliness! :D

Sources code: making easy front end changes difficult since 1873. :P

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #76

Just as a random thought, I added this to Wedge today. Don't know if it's an idea you're interesting in but it was inspired by this thread.

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #77

Very cool thing there! :D

 emanuele likes it
Bugs creator.
Features destroyer.
Template killer.

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #78

Well, it was, but apparently I did it all wrong and that it should never have been separated from the notifications menu or anything because apparently PMs are a type of notification and now the mobile layout has to be all changed.

But what would I know? I'm not a Wedge developer any more.

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #79

Well none of us are wedge developers either. Welcome to the club! ;)

 You guys must have had an argument and now you are not developing for wedge?
Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion, you must set yourself on fire!

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #80

Yup, this feature was the straw that broke the camel's back. I proposed it 6 weeks ago, complete with a mock-up and when I finally implemented it, there's some extra JS in it (because everything else was already prematurely optimised), and it's then that it comes out how it's not quite what Nao thought I was going to do and he started rewriting it. But I've had it for months where most things I wrote got rewritten in the name of optimisation (even when it backed things into a corner) and I finally had enough of holding back my thoughts in the name of keeping things ticking over.

It should be telling that I was writing a portal for the primary purpose of being able to justify adding the same features to Wedge because I didn't feel I could voice my thoughts otherwise.

There's much much more stuff I've bitten my tongue over but given that some things have changed on a personal level, I just can't do that any more. I'm mulling over my options but I have a feeling I know what I'll be working on next - and a forum is only a smaller part of it.

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #81

Quote from: Arantor –
Yup, this feature was the straw that broke the camel's back. I proposed it 6 weeks ago, complete with a mock-up

...which I didn't see. I never lied to you, I work best when focusing on a few topics, and I can't multi-task like you, so I skip entire topics, and rely on you to nudge me if there's anything important I didn't give my opinion on; because, basically, if I don't participate in a topic, it means I've skipped it.


Quoteand when I finally implemented it, there's some extra JS in it (because everything else was already prematurely optimised),

Not prematurely... It's just my usual way of handling JavaScript.
If I didn't "prematurely optimize", when should I optimize? After we go public? Well, that means in years, right..? At a point in time when we don't even know if I'll have any interest in optimizing the JS code..?
I just like tight code, that's all. Especially code that gets transmitted over HTTP, like JS. PHP is certainly not an issue.


Quoteand it's then that it comes out how it's not quite what Nao thought I was going to do

I didn't know what you were going to do. You told me, last week, that you wanted to have the PM stuff in a popup similar to the notifications one; I told you you could work on it if you wanted, because I was focusing on other features. That's all I knew. Now, although I didn't know you were doing things this way, and even though I tweaked the code to be more in line with 'regular' notifications, I only did it because it felt more logical to me. I didn't think it through, but OTOH I only updated a dozen lines of code, or something. Really nothing horrible. And I told you, years ago, that it was okay to revert someone else's changes, as long as you explained why.

Fact is, you didn't even explain why you wanted a revert. Instead, you became very agitated and even a bit insulting ("FFS"?! Was my commit REALLY worth that comment?! I reverted my biggest changes before committing the little ones, and still it's too outrageous to keep your cool?), as a result I think you have a problem right now, not me.


Quoteand he started rewriting it. But I've had it for months where most things I wrote got rewritten in the name of optimisation (even when it backed things into a corner) and I finally had enough of holding back my thoughts in the name of keeping things ticking over.

Now we're talking.
So, you've been lying to me about being okay with my constant tweaking.
That's bad. That's not how you work with people.

I adapted myself to your system. I thought you'd adjusted to mine as well. We met halfway through. That was how the team worked. Never tied to anything, but always asking ourselves, "would my partner be okay with this commit?"... As a result, I was more demanding of myself, and you were of yourself. At least, I thought so.


QuoteIt should be telling that I was writing a portal for the primary purpose of being able to justify adding the same features to Wedge because I didn't feel I could voice my thoughts otherwise.

...And you couldn't just tell me your plans, and see if I was excited or unsure about them?

I know that you've been wanting to make Wedge a full-fledged CMS for some time, so it was nothing new to me; I never said "never", and in fact I think 95% of your planned changes went through without any objection on my part. Even some areas where I could have objected (the complete removal of the 'approved' column for instance), I agreed upon.


QuoteThere's much much more stuff I've bitten my tongue over but given that some things have changed on a personal level, I just can't do that any more. I'm mulling over my options but I have a feeling I know what I'll be working on next - and a forum is only a smaller part of it.

Well, I'm sure you'll have no problems finding another partner who accepts that you're going to leave them whenever you want, because you were 'frustrated' with things that you never talked about.

Good for you.

To think that you did this to me just a couple of days after I told you privately what I was going through IRL... Empathy isn't really your thing, I guess?

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #82

While I didn't really want to get into this here, it's not our playground...

Quote...which I didn't see. I never lied to you, I work best when focusing on a few topics, and I can't multi-task like you, so I skip entire topics, and rely on you to nudge me if there's anything important I didn't give my opinion on; because, basically, if I don't participate in a topic, it means I've skipped it.

Even though I mentioned it subsequently, you even asked for a link, and I gave you one. I assumed you were OK with it as I'd outlined. Which is as implemented as described in this topic.

QuoteIf I didn't "prematurely optimize", when should I optimize? After we go public? Well, that means in years, right..? At a point in time when we don't even know if I'll have any interest in optimizing the JS code..?
I just like tight code, that's all. Especially code that gets transmitted over HTTP, like JS. PHP is certainly not an issue.

The problem is - and to be honest this is something that I'd suggest the Elk guys take note of - optimisation generally implies you've done all the main stuff for now and aren't actively rewriting it.

Rewriting JS regularly to shave individual bytes off here and there, as well as rewriting CSS regularly... these are things normally reserved for beta once all the core dev is out the way.

I've mentioned, numerous times, that all the skins I made were broken. Pretty much every break was not because core style was updated with new things but because it was rewritten to shave more bytes off. It's small wonder that in a year I've released 3 sites based on SMF and not Wedge for the sheer sake of not having to deal with that.

QuoteI didn't know what you were going to do. You told me, last week, that you wanted to have the PM stuff in a popup similar to the notifications one; I told you you could work on it if you wanted, because I was focusing on other features. That's all I knew.

I said I was going to do it based on what I'd already talked about, and I assumed you knew what I meant. The trouble is, after I made it - and it worked exactly as I'd outlined, you decided that you didn't like how I'd written it and immediately started rewriting it. Partly structurally, partly aesthetically. Had you come and spoken to me about the changes, I would have been OK, but it wasn't. It was straight up you changing it because it didn't suit your style of aesthetics. It was my first proper commit after two months out and I come back to have it dissected and pulled apart. I didn't exactly feel appreciated by that. It just made me feel as though I'd turned in some half-baked work and it wasn't good enough.

I don't object to the changes so much. I object more to the fact that you're just rewriting it without at least checking with me about what I had in mind at the time.

Only I've had that feeling pretty much the last three years. I accepted I was inadequate and tried to do better in future. I can't live up to your expectations, and that's how it is. But it's not the first time when we've seen something, I've suggested one thing, you've said something else, we never reached a decision but because I didn't change anything, you just assumed I was happy with what you were doing.

The thing is, when I sent you that big long PM, I tried to explain this feeling, that I've not been happy with it, that I've not been able to live up to your expectations. And yes, if you want to put it like that, I have been lying to you. I've been so afraid of telling you how I really feel, because I always considered it my fault that I couldn't live up to your expectations, that I didn't want to work on things because I was both afraid of having it all rewritten yet again and/or not in line with what you wanted.

QuoteFact is, you didn't even explain why you wanted a revert. Instead, you became very agitated and even a bit insulting ("FFS"?! Was my commit REALLY worth that comment?! I reverted my biggest changes before committing the little ones, and still it's too outrageous to keep your cool?), as a result I think you have a problem right now, not me.

Oh, I'm well aware I have problems. My problem is that I can't fit your ideal. I've never been able to, and I can't cope with trying to any more. So when you pull apart my first commit in months, I couldn't handle it. I'm sorry I overreacted, but by the same stroke, none of what came out yesterday should have been news to anyone. I even tried to tell you this and couldn't manage it.

QuoteNow we're talking.
So, you've been lying to me about being okay with my constant tweaking.
That's bad. That's not how you work with people.

Yes, if you want to put it that way, yes, I lied about being happy with the fact that you consistently and continually rewrite everything. Never mind the times I have flat out said this is a problem, never mind the times I've pointed out my frustrations with it. Never mind the times I've felt constrained from doing anything because of upsetting you in the execution thereof.

None of this is new. It's been outlined numerous times on wedge.org. A long time ago we stopped communicating.

Mind you, since you want full disclosure, I guess now's the time to point out a certain other home truth. There are multiple people who have come to me and said that they have feedback which was duly provided but they felt like they couldn't tell you their opinions. I understand that only too well - so yes, I omitted certain truths because I genuinely felt it was better for you not to know. I'm sorry I lied to you about that too, if you look at it like that.

QuoteI adapted myself to your system. I thought you'd adjusted to mine as well. We met halfway through. That was how the team worked. Never tied to anything, but always asking ourselves, "would my partner be okay with this commit?"... As a result, I was more demanding of myself, and you were of yourself. At least, I thought so.

What system?

Having a bug tracking system? That went the way of the dodo years ago.
Using any kind of standard for code organisation? The only standard is the one that Wedge has, something I've not liked for some time and have mentioned this more than once (c.f. autoloading)

In fact the only 'system' I think I ever managed to implement was to use some object orientation, which you took and ran with far beyond anything I'd ever imagined. But that's not really 'adapting to my system'.

Why do you think I only committed infrequently? I tried to get everything right before I committed, and screwed that up many times, but if I sincerely waited with 'will Nao be OK with this?' before I committed, I believe I'd never have committed anything.

For example, the admin panel revamp, you weren't keen on, and we met in the middle about it - but I've always kind of thought that was you just going with it because you didn't have anything better.

The moderation filters stuff, you've said you're not happy with... but again neither of us had anything better.

Warnings/infractions... same deal, really.

In fact, I think the only thing that you never really touched, pulled apart or complained about was the plugin manager, and that was because of your stated dislike of writing plugins.

I never demanded anything of you. I never expected anything of you. I expected more of myself and was found wanting. So yes, the problem is mine. Which is why I made the choice I did. Is that really so wrong? We're not exactly on the best of speaking terms, because one or other of us stopped listening a long time ago, and you can't fix a problem when you're not on speaking terms.

QuoteI know that you've been wanting to make Wedge a full-fledged CMS for some time, so it was nothing new to me; I never said "never", and in fact I think 95% of your planned changes went through without any objection on my part. Even some areas where I could have objected (the complete removal of the 'approved' column for instance), I agreed upon.

Actually, yes you did. I wanted to make the forum a module and you said no to it. To me having a CMS implies having the forum as part of the puzzle but not the 800lb gorilla in the room. Several of the other things I've talked about that tie into that were all things you've never been keen on. (Menu manager, page functionality)

What removal of the approved column? I was going to rename it and add more stuff to the same flag (to cover deleted as well) but never remove it. Removing it would mean removing post moderation and that isn't going to happen.

QuoteWell, I'm sure you'll have no problems finding another partner who accepts that you're going to leave them whenever you want, because you were 'frustrated' with things that you never talked about.

I never talked about them because I believed that you wouldn't listen if I pointed them out, or because I was too afraid of hurting your feelings.

QuoteTo think that you did this to me just a couple of days after I told you privately what I was going through IRL... Empathy isn't really your thing, I guess?

Empathy may not be my strongest point, but listening sure as hell isn't yours. Did you notice I specifically told you to take it easy on coding?

I'm not great at empathy, I'm a geek with autistic tendencies. But it was your RL stuff that made it clear that things couldn't go on. If you want to look at it the way you're looking at it, I couldn't keep lying to you. I couldn't keep it together. I don't see it the same way you do, I don't actually see it as lying to you, I see it as trying to rationalise everything as my fault and my inability to adapt to you and not telling you that I failed miserably with that. But I couldn't do that any more.

I don't know whether it's that I can't work with you, or you can't work with me, or what it is, but I know that the team just doesn't work any more. And I'm sorry, because we had a lot of fun and built some really cool stuff - but I've had the feeling for too long that we were indulging our personal desires rather than actually building things that other people would use. This is why I said that if you were to release Wedge now that people would be disappointed. But that's another truth I masked for too long to spare your feelings.

Ultimately, I've done the one thing that, to me, represented the best for Wedge's development - I removed myself from it, because it's clear from this that you wouldn't be able to trust me, and besides why would you want me to contribute knowing that every commit I write, you're going to rewrite anyway.

That's my kind of empathy for you: trying not to hurt you, but like most of what I do where other people are concerned, it backfired. I have been weighed, I have been measured, and I have been found wanting. And I'm sorry, for whatever that means to you.

@The Elk guys, I'm sorry this came out here. We shouldn't be stealing your space to air our dirty laundry. There are maybe some lessons to learn from this though.

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #83

Quote@The Elk guys, I'm sorry this came out here. We shouldn't be stealing your space to air our dirty laundry. There are maybe some lessons to learn from this though.
No worries ... as indeed there are some very good lessons to note here.  Many of the things said by both of you I'm guilty of doing/thinking/saying/etc so it provides some good items to ponder.

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #84

Quote from: Arantor – While I didn't really want to get into this here, it's not our playground...
At least, it's neutral ground.

Oh, why did you hit Like on rev 2222, like, yesterday, after you decided to leave..? Mixed signals...

QuoteEven though I mentioned it subsequently, you even asked for a link, and I gave you one. I assumed you were OK with it as I'd outlined. Which is as implemented as described in this topic.
Seriously, I don't remember you pointing me to this.
Is this it?
http://wedge.org/pub/8215/decluttering-rejigging-the-top-menu-a-little/
If yes, it's a bit of a long post, and as I said in the topic, I didn't read it entirely.
I didn't read the rest of the topic, either. From what I see in your answer, you got upset about my reply, even though I was actually serious about reverting my sidebar code... (And I'm still considering it as an option, really. The current sidebar is nice, but a bit removed from what I originally wanted, which was a Facebook app-like sidebar. Not that this kind of sidebar is perfect either, but...)
So, yeah, apparently because I suggested that you could revert my code, you thought I was being ironic, which means that you believe my code is sanctified or something, when it is not. There are so many things you implemented better than I did; I have the utmost respect for your quality of code, and I think it's a shame that you seem to think otherwise. You clearly have self-esteem issues, well, we all do, but we have to work on them, haven't we..?
I'm at an advantage here, because I've been through a lot in my life, and I've reached a position where, hmm... It sounds silly, but I think I can call myself 'wiser' than I used to be. For instance, I haven't been in a flame war in years, have I..? Although I used to enjoy these, I've just lost interest in fighting against windmills and other trolls under the bridge. There are more important things in life. Like Wedge, for instance. This is something worthy of our attention.
I can also attribute my 'wisdom' to having had a successful project (Kyodai Mahjongg), and therefore, not having much else to 'prove' with regards to my talent and sense of detail. "Been there, done that, what else?" -- to me, Wedge is just something of the same quality, no one has to confirm it to me, we've been building something fantastic, although it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but it doesn't matter, we built what we felt was missing in the web community.

So... Long story short, I had no problems with your idea, and in fact, I had no problems with your implementation, either. But did you discuss it so much in depth that you described specifically how you wanted to move the PM strings into the PM language files, rather than in the Notifications language file? If yes, then I want you to show me... Because that's basically the point where you snapped and I never got to understand why you'd snap for something so unimportant. Really, so unimportant that not only do I have no qualms in you reverting it for me, I actually encourage you to revert anything of me you don't like, as long as you think there's a good reason for it. It's called mutual trust...

QuoteThe problem is - and to be honest this is something that I'd suggest the Elk guys take note of - optimisation generally implies you've done all the main stuff for now and aren't actively rewriting it.
I don't optimize at the end of the process. Live with it. At the end of the process, I fix bugs, and I leave it alone. (Granted, I should be documenting new features, that's what's missing right now.)
But I just don't do that. I optimize on the fly, it's not something I call optimization, it's just something that makes sense to me. We have a script file that I absolutely, adamantly want to keep as short as possible, because it saves tons of gigabytes of bandwidth, and also makes Wedge faster, and I like Wedge to feel fast. When I add new JS features, I always have to choose a careful balance between the feature's interest, and how light it is. For instance, I spent something like a month on SBox, and in the end, the final product was barely above 2 kilobytes once gzipped, which is something like 20% of the competition's equivalent code. Being shorter, it runs faster, and just better. Seen anyone complain about this..? My fight isn't against features, it's against unnecessary bloat.
So, when you added so many lines of code to script.js for the feature, my first reaction was 'wow, is that really necessary?', then 'is it me, or this is very similar to the Notification code?', and then I started building a generic function around it. After finishing it, I tested it, and realized I only saved 80 gzipped bytes, and maybe it just wasn't worth it. So I reverted my code, before any commits were in the air for it. I documented that. The changes I made to your JS were really, really minor: (1) I moved your function above another one, so that it could be declared as a local function, and save 4 bytes in the process. Not much, but it's a free saving. (2) I fixed a comment typo ('clink'), which I don't remember if it's from me or you. Probably me. (3) I fixed a bug in the auto-refresh code, where you were testing for the 'count' variable, instead of 'items(1)', if my memory serves. (I'd use square brackets, but I have keyboard problems, right now.)
To me, it's not worth shouting at me... So, what else? I think the only thing that remains is the fact that I moved some of your code to the Notifications files, which, as I learned later, you didn't like.
But I'm not the one who came up with the Notif language files, or decided to load everything on each page load, etc... I was only following the guideline that Dragooon established himself. If you wanted to fix that, you could have done in the many months that this has been in the codebase. I never noticed any urge to fix it from you, and as a result, I simply never thought of notifications as a 'memory/time-eating process'.

And again: yes, do revert whatever you don't like in my commits. If you feel bad about it, just wink at me before, or ask for my approval if you really must. But even commit reversals can be reversed as well, it's the beauty of CVS systems after all: nothing is set is stone, you can do whatever you want with the code...

QuoteRewriting JS regularly to shave individual bytes off here and there, as well as rewriting CSS regularly... these are things normally reserved for beta once all the core dev is out the way.
I haven't been rewriting much of these...! At least not for months.
I'm only fixing stuff, from time to time. Please find me a few examples.
The only thing I can think of, recently, is the postbg removal code... Which you suggested yourself!

QuoteI've mentioned, numerous times, that all the skins I made were broken.
THAT much broken?

QuotePretty much every break was not because core style was updated with new things but because it was rewritten to shave more bytes off.
Again, I'll need proof, because I ween (appropriate we-word) you're being a bit overdramatic about this, and haven't realized that the last time I broke skins was long ago.
(Sidebars, maybe..? Yes, sidebars are game-breaking, but that was to be expected, wasn't it..?)

QuoteIt's small wonder that in a year I've released 3 sites based on SMF and not Wedge for the sheer sake of not having to deal with that.
Export Wedge to new folder. FTP new folder into your website. Check install.sql log in the SVN, to see if any database structure changes were done in the meantime (doesn't happen very often). If no, leave alone, if yes, update manually in phpMyAdmin.
Update done.
Not only that, but eventually Wedge will have its own internal system to do database updates automatically, without any need to run phpMyAdmin...

QuoteI said I was going to do it based on what I'd already talked about, and I assumed you knew what I meant. The trouble is, after I made it - and it worked exactly as I'd outlined, you decided that you didn't like how I'd written it and immediately started rewriting it. Partly structurally, partly aesthetically.
I still don't see what's wrong in doing what I did... The commit patch is something like a couple of kilobytes! The worst offender is the fact that I moved a function around (which in SVN always translates to a lot of data), without any changes to it.

QuoteHad you come and spoken to me about the changes, I would have been OK, but it wasn't. It was straight up you changing it because it didn't suit your style of aesthetics.
I'm pretty much in charge of code conformity. I get the last word on this. John and Dragooon both know it -- I rewrote so much of their contributions. But I'd never be able to write their contributions in the first place (or at last take the time to do it). My rewrites aren't meant as a pointed finger, they're just me being absolutely anal about how the source code should look like (which is, basically: follow the original SMF guidelines, because I'm not going to stand for two different ways of writing code in the same source files.)
And I rewrite my own code a lot, too!
Not only that, but my feeling with you, is that in the years we worked together, you'd totally nailed it. It's been years since we've been in agreement over this, and I usually don't have anything to fix. Frankly, if you're upset over me doing three miserable single-line changes to a big commit you just made, the problem is not with me, at this point.

If you just needed a reason to leave the project, you could have done it more elegantly.
You know, like my ex did...
"I'm moving out, can you please keep my cat? There's no room in my place."
(Later on, she kidnapped the cat for some reason.)

QuoteIt was my first proper commit after two months out and I come back to have it dissected and pulled apart. I didn't exactly feel appreciated by that. It just made me feel as though I'd turned in some half-baked work and it wasn't good enough.
Your commits are always appreciated. Especially this one, I liked it a lot. But since it's front-end related, I had to put in my grain of salt. For instance, I didn't see why the <pms> block should be in the skeleton, if the <notifs> block wasn't. So I moved the pms declaration in, but obviously, you could have requested me to do it the other way around, and put <notifs> into the skeleton.xml file. Whatever works... I originally added notifs 'manually', because it gives me more freedom as to where the block should be placed in case a layer is missing, but in the end I could have have it in skeleton.xml just as well -- it's a powerful system, as simple as that...

QuoteI don't object to the changes so much. I object more to the fact that you're just rewriting it without at least checking with me about what I had in mind at the time.
Because I thought you'd consider my changes to be harmless.
Of course, any time I wanted to rewrite one of your bigger things, I discussed it with you beforehand..!
And when I rewrite something, I usually document the reason in the changelog, too...

QuoteOnly I've had that feeling pretty much the last three years. I accepted I was inadequate and tried to do better in future. I can't live up to your expectations, and that's how it is.
And I can't live up to yours, either... So there's always going to be some frustration in us working together, but look at what we achieved... Wedge is all the better for it. Are you really not proud about what we did as a team? We may have had our moments, but don't you think that everyone has to go through this, when working with someone else? It's like a married couple, really... You have to work on it, too.

QuoteThe thing is, when I sent you that big long PM,
And you know I have a problem with long PMs and long posts, right...? Reading them, all right, hard but doable, but answering them... It's horrible for me. I hate typing on a keyboard, these days. I just can't focus any more, I'm too old for this fudge nuggets. That's why I suggested we start talking together by web-phone. I even installed Google Hangouts on my S3 the day before you quit. I was planning to ask you to get in touch that way, since there's a Mac client for it or something... Because the good thing with real life conversations, is that when you ask something, you get an answer immediately. And my full attention.

QuoteI tried to explain this feeling, that I've not been happy with it, that I've not been able to live up to your expectations. And yes, if you want to put it like that, I have been lying to you. I've been so afraid of telling you how I really feel, because I always considered it my fault that I couldn't live up to your expectations, that I didn't want to work on things because I was both afraid of having it all rewritten yet again and/or not in line with what you wanted.
Really, I don't see where you're pulling that from... It makes me sound like I systematically rewrote all of your contributions. Considering you sent close to a thousand commits (I can't remember right now), it would be silly on my part to waste so much time rewriting something that doesn't need a rewrite...!

QuoteOh, I'm well aware I have problems. My problem is that I can't fit your ideal.
We're not actually married, you know...? O:-)

QuoteI've never been able to, and I can't cope with trying to any more. So when you pull apart my first commit in months, I couldn't handle it. I'm sorry I overreacted, but by the same stroke, none of what came out yesterday should have been news to anyone. I even tried to tell you this and couldn't manage it.
If you were really sorry, you wouldn't be acting this way. You'd be working on being more straightforward with me, before doing anything too silly. Before throwing away three years of work, because I still don't know how I'm going to manage Wedge by myself.

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #85

Part 2... (Apparently, Elk doesn't like posts with more than 20KB of contents... Why not rename it to twitter and be done with? :P)

QuoteNone of this is new. It's been outlined numerous times on wedge.org. A long time ago we stopped communicating.
A long time ago, you started posting too many posts everywhere, and I started to be behind on everything, and I told you I wouldn't read the posts unless you pointed me to them individually.

QuoteMind you, since you want full disclosure, I guess now's the time to point out a certain other home truth. There are multiple people who have come to me and said that they have feedback which was duly provided but they felt like they couldn't tell you their opinions.
Of course...  ::) Easy to say. I want proof. Names, situations, reasons.

QuoteI understand that only too well - so yes, I omitted certain truths because I genuinely felt it was better for you not to know.
Because I can't handle a little criticism? What am I, a wimp?! (Another appropriate word..?)

QuoteIn fact the only 'system' I think I ever managed to implement was to use some object orientation, which you took and ran with far beyond anything I'd ever imagined.
What, you mean the weSkeleton object..? That was just me learning the basics. Now I can use objects, yes. Yay. No, the 'system' I was talking to, was really more about... keeping up with you, and accepting that your ideas are sometimes not compatible with mine, and that I may have to ignore my own ideas and embrace your implementations. You know, like... Having a colorful admin homepage, or plenty of wizards, or phasing out the approved bit... These things don't work well with *me*, but I took you and the community into consideration, and never opposed them being committed.
Considering I used to be my 100% own boss, I had to work on lot on that...
Plus, generally, you taught me plenty of things. Like being careful about security issues. I didn't care, originally. I didn't see beyond basic user input and whatever. See what I did last week with the security fix I posted? You approved it... That was me, adapting to your system, and innocently seeking your approval.

QuoteWhy do you think I only committed infrequently?
Because you lost interest in Wedge long ago... I can imagine that. You always had more projects on the back-burner. Personally, I dropped everything to work on Wedge, and I've spent the last three years on it, exclusively. No one be more focused than I am -- after all, I did spent nearly 10 years working on a silly puzzle game, when most developers work on these things for a few months, and then do some other game that will bring them more income. I just didn't care about the money, I cared about making the perfect product. I wanted to do the same for Wedge, and I still do. But that also means I understand why anyone else than me would be less focused. I'm used to it.

QuoteI tried to get everything right before I committed, and screwed that up many times, but if I sincerely waited with 'will Nao be OK with this?' before I committed, I believe I'd never have committed anything.
And I'd have been against it, too..!
Why use a CVS if we can't make commits on a whim..?!

QuoteFor example, the admin panel revamp, you weren't keen on, and we met in the middle about it
In the middle? I thought you'd gone all the way through it...  ;D
Seriously, what did you give up on...? Not removing the admin menu, maybe..? I think most people were against the idea, though...

Quote- but I've always kind of thought that was you just going with it because you didn't have anything better.
Well, to me, 'better' in this case was the original SMF admin homepage, but... ^^;

QuoteThe moderation filters stuff, you've said you're not happy with... but again neither of us had anything better.
My 'better' in this case, is simply not to disable the approved bit on posts... And allow for a 'Hide this post' button, as a quick way for moderators to hide a post before asking the admin for their decision.

QuoteWarnings/infractions... same deal, really.
Hey, I was alright with these..?!
The only thing I complained about, was the lack of unity in how these were all named. I'm not sure I fixed the English strings, but I tried to do it in French. Other than that, err... I dunno, what was wrong? What did I say about it? The ban system was alright, too..? Maybe it made everything a bit more complicated, but in this case you tried for completeness, rather than simplicity, I think... And the wizard is a straightforward process, too. I would like an alternative to ban multiple users, but until the day I really need it, it's not that big a deal... I guess!

QuoteIn fact, I think the only thing that you never really touched, pulled apart or complained about was the plugin manager, and that was because of your stated dislike of writing plugins.
I never liked writing mods, either...!
In fact, over time I really grew to love your plugin system. It's one of the best things you ever did on Wedge, among many other awesome things.

QuoteI never demanded anything of you. I never expected anything of you. I expected more of myself and was found wanting. So yes, the problem is mine. Which is why I made the choice I did. Is that really so wrong?
It's not wrong to leave Wedge if you're not feeling it anymore. It's wrong to put the blame on something (or someone!) else, even if it's easier for you.

QuoteWe're not exactly on the best of speaking terms, because one or other of us stopped listening a long time ago, and you can't fix a problem when you're not on speaking terms.
I don't know where you're getting this from, but I never, EVER saw us as "not being on speaking terms"...
I saw you as "difficult to be online with at the same time", because for some reason you decided you liked night better and tuned yourself to the US timezone, I saw you as difficult to follow because you're posting too much for my taste, in too many different places, but whenever I sent you a PM asking for something, I always, always got a reply within 24 hours, which isn't something you could say about me...! (Mainly for the reason explained above: it's excrutiatingly hard for me to type on a keyboard for more than 5 minutes straight. It may be a medical problem, or attention-deficit disorder, I don't know, but it's really hard for me, and has always been, at least these last 5-10 years.)

QuoteI know that you've been wanting to make Wedge a full-fledged CMS for some time,
I thought that was you...  :D
What I wanted to do was improve blog support in Wedge, and possibly add support for a 'site' type, but I always saw it as just a natural evolution of forums, which isn't the same as a 'proper' CMS where you mostly manipulate static pages.
As for you, I thought that your current work on a SMF portal (?!) was related to testing CMS features for Wedge... So, whatever.

QuoteActually, yes you did. I wanted to make the forum a module and you said no to it. To me having a CMS implies having the forum as part of the puzzle but not the 800lb gorilla in the room.
A module or a plugin?
I don't really see how it could have worked out...

And no, I'm not against the idea, I just don't know what could be provided in its place...!

QuoteSeveral of the other things I've talked about that tie into that were all things you've never been keen on. (Menu manager, page functionality)
So... You want a CMS or not? ^^

QuoteWhat removal of the approved column? I was going to rename it and add more stuff to the same flag (to cover deleted as well) but never remove it. Removing it would mean removing post moderation and that isn't going to happen.
You know-- there's a single line in the commit you made, that disables post_approve (or a similarly name variable) if no moderation filters are enabled. Which meant, of course, that performance was better, but it also meant that if you wanted to approve/unapprove posts, you first had to create a dummy moderation filter, which I never understood...

That's what I complained (and still complain?) about... I just wanted to have some switch out there, to enable post moderation without having to actually make a dummy filter.

QuoteI never talked about them because I believed that you wouldn't listen if I pointed them out, or because I was too afraid of hurting your feelings.
Hey, I'm 38, I've seen it all. Feelings are made to be hurt! Which means you still have a heart. ;D
What's wrong, of course, is when you keep resentment over this...
Ever seen any movie where a psychiatrist tells a husband or wife that they should complain every time they have an issue, rather than keep it all inside and end up exploding at some point..? You've got the basics. I'm a grown-up, I can take criticism, especially when it has a background.

QuoteEmpathy may not be my strongest point, but listening sure as hell isn't yours. Did you notice I specifically told you to take it easy on coding?
I'm not a great listener, for sure. But yes, I do remember you saying that...
Still, what I'm complaining about, is that even after you told me to take it easy, you went ahead and dropped this bomb on me... My life is already a mess right now, and now I can't even stop bothering my girl with these stories because, "what am I gonna do now?!"...

QuoteI'm not great at empathy, I'm a geek with autistic tendencies. But it was your RL stuff that made it clear that things couldn't go on. If you want to look at it the way you're looking at it, I couldn't keep lying to you. I couldn't keep it together. I don't see it the same way you do, I don't actually see it as lying to you, I see it as trying to rationalise everything as my fault and my inability to adapt to you and not telling you that I failed miserably with that. But I couldn't do that any more.
So, why didn't you just comment on my (private) offer to fork Wedge into two codebases, one for you, one for me, where we'd be free to apply 100% of our vision, while trying to keep 95% of them in sync? You seem shocked at the idea, even though I only made a very soft suggestion about it. Right now, I don't get why you'd feel shocked, when it actually would have solved all your problems, really...?!

QuoteI don't know whether it's that I can't work with you, or you can't work with me, or what it is, but I know that the team just doesn't work any more. And I'm sorry, because we had a lot of fun and built some really cool stuff - but I've had the feeling for too long that we were indulging our personal desires rather than actually building things that other people would use.
I just applied the same formula as what I did for Kyodai Mahjongg and Aeva Media... "I have a dream. Let's do it. I'm sure some people will like it." Tens of thousands did, apparently.

QuoteThis is why I said that if you were to release Wedge now that people would be disappointed. But that's another truth I masked for too long to spare your feelings.
No, actually, you said something in the same lines a few months ago, but I have to disagree -- a public beta right now wouldn't be too soon. It would be late by about two years, actually! And it would still hold the contents we wrote for three years, and that's not something to be ashamed of. I can point out at least 20 good reasons why any forum owner would want to switch to Wedge. And if the price to pay is that the thing is a little bit undocumented and rough over the edges, you know what...? They'll still be gently caress happy they made the switch!
(I'm sorry, Elk team, the same probably applies to you, I don't really look at your codebase ^^)

QuoteUltimately, I've done the one thing that, to me, represented the best for Wedge's development - I removed myself from it, because it's clear from this that you wouldn't be able to trust me, and besides why would you want me to contribute knowing that every commit I write, you're going to rewrite anyway.
Your views are distorted, right now.
And if anything, please remember that there are so many areas in Wedge that totally need your support: maintaining plugin code, Bad Behavior rules, keeping an eye on general security, so many things like that off the top of my head... And most importantly, I need someone to be bitchy about my own additions! Most people will hit Like on everything I do, and it's important for me, but it's also important to have unbiased opinions on what I'm doing wrong...!

That's all I had to say, really....

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #86

 Eliana Tamerin munches on popcorn.

Was there a cover fee for this event or something? Or is it just the old 'courtesy to buy a drink' standard?

 

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #87

Quote from: Eliana Tamerin –
 Eliana Tamerin munches on popcorn.

Was there a cover fee for this event or something? Or is it just the old 'courtesy to buy a drink' standard?
Proud of yourself, maaan?

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #88


Quote from: Nao –
Quote from: Eliana Tamerin –
 Eliana Tamerin munches on popcorn.

Was there a cover fee for this event or something? Or is it just the old 'courtesy to buy a drink' standard?
Proud of yourself, maaan?

Not quite, I don't think my drama is as annoying as yours is yet. I'll keep working on it, though.

Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal

Reply #89

Lots of love to you, too.