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Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #60

I found a lot of strings, which are no more used...

For example this one in ManageBoards.english.php on line 31 is irritating, it maybe should be removed:
Code: [Select]
$txt['mboards_permissions_confirm'] = 'Are you sure you want to switch this board to use local permissions?';


And this one on line 90 is in use, but seems wrong to me:

Code: [Select]
$txt['boardsaccess_option_desc'] = 'For each permission you can choose \'Allow\' (A), \'Ignore\' (X), or <span class="alert">\'Deny\' (D)</span>.<br /><br />If you deny access, any member - (including moderators) - in that group will be denied access.<br />For this reason, you should set deny carefully, only when <strong>necessary</strong>. Ignore, on the other hand, denies unless otherwise granted.';

Text should be "For each group", not "For each permission"
and this "ignore (X)" is not possible there. Text should be twice "not allowed" in this string.
Last Edit: April 03, 2023, 07:36:29 am by Ruth

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #61

Quote from: Ruth – Steeley, I bet, that there are a lot more such terms with different meanings in german than in english.
Like I said: the german language has less words, so this is just natural.
For example: heaven and sky - we have only one word for both meanings.

But I just found another english term  in the files with more than one meaning.
It had been translated funny and I was really laughing... :cheesy:

Order

1. If you want to buy something or if you go for a meal, then you sometimes order it first (in german: bestellen, Bestellung)
2. An order can also be a command, like: "Clean your room now!" (in german: befehlen, Befehl, Anordnung)
3. A certain order of sorted things, like the boards in a category (in german: Anordnung, Reihenfolge)

The last translator wrote "Bestellung" instead of "Reihenfolge",
which means, he ordered some boards, maybe he was hungry.  :tongue:



Makes sense.... "Ordered some 'boards' (slang for Pop Tarts! )"  :yum:

Actually, there's even more meanings as well...a group of people organized formally  (e.g. fraternal Order of Masons, )  and "normalize/regulate ("the police maintain order") and "begin formally" (e.g, "call a meeting to order", or a bailiff ("The court shall come to order"), or a military drill position, from "Present Arms" , give the order to the position "Order (Arms)" (while at attention a salute returns the hand and arm to the side along the pant seam,  or rifle placed vertically butt down  and adjacent to the right shoe or boot, or a sword or saber placed tip down in front of the right shoe or boot  i.e "the Order Arms position").

context.jpg
Last Edit: April 03, 2023, 09:58:00 pm by Steeley

// Deep inside every dilemma lies a solution that involves explosives //

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #62

Quote from: Ruth –
And this one on line 90 is in use, but seems wrong to me:

Text should be "For each group", not "For each permission"
and this "ignore (X)" is not possible there. Text should be twice "not allowed" in this string.

I believe you are correct that it should read "for each group..", but I think ("ignore (X)") indeed has a role to play (basically it means "look elsewhere for controlling authority"). Perhaps "elsewhere" could be activity permissions (post, edit, etc.) based on either groups or levels - I'm not sure of the logical flow chart of permissions for any particular use case (is anybody? :zany_face: ]

BTW, is "Globaler Moderator" a level above the basic run-of-the-mill "Global Moderator"?  :wink:

[And if we're going to have a Globaler Moderator, how about a "Globalest Moderator" - wears the one ring that rules them all -  (as opposed to a "Globalist Moderator", which sounds like either an advocacy role or a philosophical characteristic role - I have no idea how I'd set permissions for that.. :star_struck: ).


Edit: Oh, and regarding "one word for both sky and heaven" in the post I previously quoted, we too have that..."UP" ☝  (and yes, "up" has other meanings too, of course.. I'll let you 'look "up" up' - or it that 'look up' "up"?).
I give up...
Good luck to you, it's a thankless endeavor..
Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 12:28:23 pm by Steeley

// Deep inside every dilemma lies a solution that involves explosives //

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #63

If a member wants to ignore certain boards, he can do this in his profile settings.

Ignoring has nothing to do with the allowed access of boards by member groups, so this english string is using wrong words, but the german translation was already correct. This part of the settings for the boards is only displayed, if an admin has enabled "deny" for access and permissions.

QuoteBTW, is "Globaler Moderator" a level above the basic run-of-the-mill "Global Moderator"?

lol...no, it is the only group name I translated yet into german on test forum.



Your "up" reminds me to this:

@Jorin and me did translate the strings "sort up" and "sort down" different. This was leading to "wrong icons" (two different arrows) I created for this actions once. :wink:  Jorin thought, that those two strings are orders, like "sort them up!" and "sort them down!".  And I thought, this strings mean "this is sort up" and "this is sort down". 

But now it seems to me, that this two strings are used different. My icons are fine for the admin area and for the member list. But they are wrong for sorting topics and for the order of PMs . Well...noone will care about this - except me. :wink:
Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 12:52:54 pm by Ruth

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #64

Quote from: Ruth – If a member wants to ignore certain boards, he can do this in his profile settings.

Ignoring has nothing to do with the allowed access of boards by member groups, so this english string is using wrong words, but the german translation was already correct. This part of the settings for the boards is only displayed, if an admin has enabled "deny" for access and permissions.


I'm not sure I agree with what I think you're saying Ruth. 

With Admin setting permissions for groups, I believe "ignore" means "not set here", permission is conditional and controlled elsewhere (as opposed to the other possible setting for this group (allow or deny) - "I'm not controlling it here, I'm controlling access in another group, board, or member permission setting".

That's different than a member deciding what to access or not in his own profile in the "Ignore Boards Options".
Admin can give access to the member's group by either Allow, or ("Ignore", meaning I allow it elsewhere in some conditions and deny it elsewhere in other conditions), and an individual member can then choose to ignore any particular board Admin allows, regardless of the Admin's group or board settings. (Of course, if the member is denied access by virtue of the Admin settings for the members group, message count, # of likes, whatever pertains, the member shouldn't even see the board at all, including listed in the member's profile settings)

If I'm wrong on that, it may explain some of my difficulty figuring out the permission logic flow chart :upside_down:
  
Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 02:37:49 pm by Steeley

// Deep inside every dilemma lies a solution that involves explosives //

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #65

Quote from: Ruth –
Your "up" reminds me to this:

@Jorin and me did translate the strings "sort up" and "sort down" different. This was leading to "wrong icons" (two different arrows) I created for this actions once. :wink:  Jorin thought, that those two strings are orders, like "sort them up!" and "sort them down!".  And I thought, this strings mean "this is sort up" and "this is sort down". 

But now it seems to me, that this two strings are used different. My icons are fine for the admin area and for the member list. But they are wrong for sorting topics and for the order of PMs . Well...noone will care about this - except me. :wink:

For what it's worth, I interpret that as a command "sort the display based on this option the other way" (alphabetically, date, # of likes, whatever the options are. Perhaps because the debate as you described is universal and implemented both ways everywhere it seems (this is the sort order vs. change the sort order), if I don't like the existing sort order, I change it based on the sort criteria offered - the arrows could be stacked (up/down) and mean the same thing to me.  

In high school I took a speed-reading course, which completely disrespects an author who spends considerable time deciding, for example, whether to use an "and" or an "or" to conjoin two sentences and thus concepts in his literary masterpiece.  Thanks to Evelyn Wood, I blow right by it and don't even see what the author decided on.. Similarly, I don't get stuck pondering the arrow direction, I just know if I select it it will change from whatever it is currently..

// Deep inside every dilemma lies a solution that involves explosives //

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #66

I think, you are wrong, Steeley....but it is very hard to explain it for me....I will try:

In the generell settings of all boards on forum an admin decides, if he will allow members to ignore boards.

This is done here:

ignore boards.jpg


If it is allwowed, then any member with full access to the own profile settings can select the boards, he/she wants to ignore.
It is allowed on elkarte.net. This is a screenshot of my profile settings here. I could select any board here, I want:

ignore.jpg

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #67

Quote from: Ruth – I think, you are wrong, Steeley....but it is very hard to explain it for me....I will try:

In the generell settings of all boards on forum an admin decides, if he will allow members to ignore boards.

This is done here:

[attach type=thumb align=center]10417[/attach]


If it is allwowed, then any member with full access to the own profile settings can select the boards, he/she wants to ignore.
It is allowed on elkarte.net. This is a screenshot of my profile settings here. I could select any board here, I want:

[attach type=thumb align=center]10419[/attach]

OK, so what does "Enable the Option to Deny Board Access" accomplish depending on the group "Allow / Ignore / Deny" setting (which I also have selected..)?  [I'm not saying I have anything "right" here, I'm relating what I think is right, with a big caveat..]

And I got it wrong wrt ".. a member deciding what to access or not in his own profile in the "Ignore Boards Options".", as it pertains not to "access" but to new post alerts).

(This is probably a discussion that should take place in a different board as it isn't related specifically to German translation, plus, I'm not sure what, if anything, has changed in permission logic from v.1.1.6 (mine)  to v.1.1.9)
Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 03:03:21 pm by Steeley

// Deep inside every dilemma lies a solution that involves explosives //

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #68

QuoteOK, so what does "Enable the Option to Deny Board Access" accomplish depending on the group "Allow / Ignore / Deny" setting (which I also have selected..)?

It has nothing to do with "ignore"...wrong english text there. The text should be "not allowed" there.

This "deny-option" can be used, if you have created a "very difficult system" about member groups, with very different permissions and more than one group a member belongs to. If one of this groups is allowed to see the board and the other one is not, things wont work. This member could still use the board, because he is in both groups. So sometimes you might need then to deny the access to a certain board, if you want to exclude a certain member group from using it.

Normally "deny" it is not needed, "not allow" is enough mostly.
Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 03:09:54 pm by Ruth

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #69

Quote from: Ruth –
QuoteOK, so what does "Enable the Option to Deny Board Access" accomplish depending on the group "Allow / Ignore / Deny" setting (which I also have selected..)?

It has nothing to do with "ignore"...wrong english text there. The text should be "not allowed" there.

This "deny-option" can be used, if you have created a "very difficult system" about member groups, with very different permissions and more than one group a member belongs to. If one of this groups is allowed to see the board and the other one is not, things wont work. This member could still use the board, because he is in both groups. So sometimes you might need then to deny the access to a certain board, if you want to exclude a certain member group from using it.

Normally "deny" it is not needed, "not allow" is enough mostly.

I suspect conceptually we're in contentious agreement, but not regarding "not allowed". Access may indeed be allowed, but this board permission setting is not making that determination, "Selecting "ignore" (or "X") allows it to be determined in some other permission setting somewhere else.

(And sometimes the obvious escapes my attention - I just deleted a whole bunch of text I posted trying to illustrate and elaborate on what the last sentence of explanation in your permissions screenshot says succinctly..)

"For this reason, you should set deny carefully, only when necessary. Ignore, on the other hand, denies unless otherwise granted

I noted earlier.. "..I believe "ignore" means "not set here", permission is conditional and controlled elsewhere.." (yes, system default is deny if permission is not allowed in some other setting somewhere else. )

What did I say earlier about "sometimes English needs to be translated into....other English"?
 And sometimes that just makes it worse.. :persevere:

However, regarding a user's profile settings to ignore boards, that's completely unrelated to board access permission settings.. So, yes, the word "ignore" means different things; in board settings it pertains to board access control, in user profile board settings it pertains to new post indications - neither of which actually means "don't pay attention to", which is what in the literary sense, "ignore" actually means. 
Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 08:26:33 pm by Steeley

// Deep inside every dilemma lies a solution that involves explosives //

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #70

Steeley, i will need google translator for trying to understand your post proper, will do this now... (darn...why did you remove a part of your text?)

But first:

Please change this string on line 90 in your ManageBoards.english.php:
Code: [Select]
$txt['boardsaccess_option_desc'] = 'For each permission you can choose \'Allow\' (A), \'Ignore\' (X), or <span class="alert">\'Deny\' (D)</span>.<br /><br />If you deny access, any member - (including moderators) - in that group will be denied access.<br />For this reason, you should set deny carefully, only when <strong>necessary</strong>. Ignore, on the other hand, denies unless otherwise granted.';

Believe me, it is wrong. Thats a pretty old mistake in the english language files. I remember, that I corrected this a long time ago in the german files. I know, how this feature works and another proof, that this english text is wrong is, that the text is only displayed, if the admin enables "deny board access based on members group".

The english text of the string on line 90 should be something like this:
Code: [Select]
$txt['boardsaccess_option_desc'] = 'For each group you can choose \'Allow\' (A), \'Not allowed\' (X), or <span class="alert">\'Deny\' (D)</span>.<br /><br />If you deny access, any member - (including moderators) - in that group will be denied access.<br />For this reason, you should set deny carefully, only when <strong>necessary</strong>. Not allowed, on the other hand, denies unless otherwise granted.';

The settings of your board are (almost) fine, you dont need to deny here any group the access. The X is enough for not allowing to see and use this board.

Set all groups to X . Except "Global Moderator" and "Free Spirits", they should both have an A for "allowed", because they should see this board.



None of your groups is based on the number posts? So none of them is like "Regular Members"? This is something, you need to watch, if you want to deny access once for a board: Every group/member belongs to "Regular Members" as well, so "Regular Members" or any other of the "based on post groups" should never been set on "D".

You also need to look, if a member belongs for example to "Free Spirits" and to "Air crew", if you might use "deny" for one of this two groups in a board one day. But only with A and X all will be fine:

"Free Spirits" have an A, so it matters not, that some of them belong also to the group "Air crew", which is set on X in this board.  Every member, who belongs to the group "Free Spirits" has access to this board. And members, who belong only to the group "Air crew" wont see this board, because the X is working for them.
Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 11:42:05 pm by Ruth

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #71

.
Hi Ruth,
take DeepL for translations. The results are much better than those of Google Translator! :smiley:
ElkArte version: 1.1.8 / Theme: BeSocial / PHP 8.0

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #72

Quote from: Ruth – Steeley, i will need google translator for trying to understand your post proper, will do this now... (darn...why did you remove a part of your text?)

Because it was lots and lots of text as example of my point, which I decided was not just confusing but redundant to the succinct description text in the permissions screen.

Quote from: Ruth –
But first:

Please change this string on line 90 in your ManageBoards.english.php:
Code: [Select]
$txt['boardsaccess_option_desc'] = 'For each permission you can choose \'Allow\' (A), \'Ignore\' (X), or <span class="alert">\'Deny\' (D)</span>.<br /><br />If you deny access, any member - (including moderators) - in that group will be denied access.<br />For this reason, you should set deny carefully, only when <strong>necessary</strong>. Ignore, on the other hand, denies unless otherwise granted.';

Believe me, it is wrong. Thats a pretty old mistake in the english language files. I remember, that I corrected this a long time ago in the german files. I know, how this feature works and another proof, that this english text is wrong is, that the text is only displayed, if the admin enables "deny board access based on members group".

The english text of the string on line 90 should be something like this:
Code: [Select]
$txt['boardsaccess_option_desc'] = 'For each group you can choose \'Allow\' (A), \'Not allowed\' (X), or <span class="alert">\'Deny\' (D)</span>.<br /><br />
If you deny access, any member - (including moderators) - in that group will be denied access.<br />For this reason, you should set deny carefully, only when <strong>necessary</strong>. Not allowed, on the other hand, denies unless otherwise granted.';

This is where I must disagree.  "X" is NOT "not allowed", "X" is "denied or allowed by virtue of other permission settings". Saying "X" is "not allowed" (in english, "not permitted") tells a 'novice' admin access is "not allowed" when in fact, access might indeed be allowed by other permissions (member group permissions I'm thinking specifically).  Really confusing when the admin thinks a user is "not allowed" access per the board permissions,  yet discovers they DO have access anyway. 

I don't know who wins the collision if member group permissions set up a board access and board permissions set that member group to deny  that access. I suspect the board settings take precedence, which is why "X" exists.

"X" tell the Admin the access permissions for that member group aren't set in the board permissions, but elsewhere.

(Perhaps a better word than "ignore" is "deferred").

Quote from: Ruth –
The settings of your board are (almost) fine, you dont need to deny here any group the access. The X is enough for not allowing to see and use this board.

Set all groups to X . Except "Global Moderator" and "Free Spirits", they should both have an A for "allowed", because they should see this board.

Actually, it's better than "almost fine".. it IS fine.  It does exactly what I want. And what you suggest is what I did (except for guests set to Allowed because,  even though I have no guests,  RBE email runs at the guest level and I specifically want email support in this board.. if I set it to "X" RBE doesn't work in that board, because there are no guest permissions set elsewhere to override the default deny.

Quote from: Ruth –
None of your groups is based on the number posts? So none of them is like "Regular Members"? This is something, you need to watch, if you want to deny access once for a board: Every group/member belongs to "Regular Members" as well, so "Regular Members" or any other of the "based on post groups" should never been set on "D".

All of my members are "regular members", there are no special permissions or privileges based on post count, so those distinctions are irrelevant .  At present, I have no "moderator" accounts, only one Global Moderator account, and one admin account (and both of those accounts are mine).

Quote from: Ruth – You also need to look, if a member belongs for example to "Free Spirits" and to "Air crew", if you might use "deny" for one of this two groups in a board one day. But only with A and X all will be fine:

"Free Spirits" have an A, so it matters not, that some of them belong also to the group "Air crew", which is set on X in this board.  Every member, who belongs to the group "Free Spirits" has access to this board. And members, who belong only to the group "Air crew" wont see this board, because the X is working for them.


When I set up permissions, I wasn't sure whether "deny" for a group would be over-ridden by "allow" for another group that a user might be also be a member of.  And I can't be sure that at some point in the future the permission logic tree isn't changed so that deny would apply to all members of that group, regardless of also being in another group with access allowed. 
Last Edit: April 05, 2023, 03:34:36 am by Steeley

// Deep inside every dilemma lies a solution that involves explosives //

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #73

Hi, Mrs. Chaos!  :smiley:  Nice to see you again.... and "thank you". I hope, you are well?

It is getting complicated here, Steeley... :wink:  Maybe better to start another topic for permissions and member groups.

I dont reply to everything now, because I think, we have language barriers here: I don't understand you exactly and I might just confuse you more, when I try to explain things to you.

So just this for now:

X means "disallow". ( I said "not allowed" before, but "disallow" would be correct.) This english word is everywhere else used in the settings, like for example here:
disallow.jpg

The english text on line 90 in ManageBoards.english.php is wrong, it has to be this way:
Code: [Select]
$txt['boardsaccess_option_desc'] = 'For each group you can choose \'Allow\' (A), \'Disallow\' (X), or <span class="alert">\'Deny\' (D)</span>.<br /><br />If you deny access, any member - (including moderators) - in that group will be denied access.<br />For this reason, you should set deny carefully, only when <strong>necessary</strong>. Disallow, on the other hand, denies unless otherwise granted.';

"Regular Members" and "Regular Groups" means something different, when we are in the boards.

"Regular Members" is a summary of all "post based member groups" which exist on forum. So you could just select them all together, if you want to make it easy for board access. "Regular Members" is underlined as well, like the other "post count based groups" . P_boards.jpg group.jpg

Your groups  "Free Spirits" ,"Air crew" and "remtest" are "Regular Groups", but they  don't belong to "Regular members", because they are not post based and not underlined on your screenshot.

(Well, in some way they belong to "Regular Members" too, because each person will be at least a "Newbie" too. Thats why I said "never use "Deny" for any regular members/post based groups.)

When you create new member groups or when you set the permissions for groups, you will see the difference between "Regular Groups" and "Regular members".

Regular groups are on the top here, post count based groups on the bottom:
p member groups.jpg

But if you manage permissions you have all members of post based groups on the top as well, because they all belong to "Regular Members" and you could set the same basic permissions to all of them:
P_Manage permissions.jpg


QuoteWhen I set up permissions, I wasn't sure whether "deny" for a group would be over-ridden by "allow" for another group that a user might be also be a member of.  And I can't be sure that at some point in the future the permission logic tree isn't changed so that deny would apply to all members of that group, regardless of also being in another group with access allowed. 

"Deny" is very powerful. It will overwrite any "allow" for people in their other groups, they belong to. You won't need "deny" ever, me thinks. It can be used in very seldom and extraordinary cases and circumstances (if you want to be mean and sneaky). But normally you won't need it. "Allow" and "disallow" will do it mostly for any permissions and accesses, you want to have for your groups on forum.
Last Edit: April 05, 2023, 07:40:53 am by Ruth

Re: German language files (informal) for 1.1.9

Reply #74

Quote from: Ruth –
It is getting complicated here, Steeley... :wink:  Maybe better to start another topic for permissions and member groups.


Yea, I suggested that earlier

QuoteSo just this for now:

X means "disallow". ( I said "not allowed" before, but "disallow" would be correct.)


Referring to Merriam-Webster dictionary:

"Disallow":   ((synonym: "not allowed" - same meaning)
transitive verb

1 : to deny the force, truth, or validity of
2: to refuse to allow  <----  

"Defer":
transitive verb
: to delegate to another

intransitive verb
: to submit to another's wishes, opinion, or governance, usually through deference or respect



Because "X" will allow a permission set elsewhere to determine the board permission for the "X'd" member group in the board, "disallow" would be incorrect. 

"Defer" is more appropriate than "ignore", and definitely more accurate/less confusing than "disallow" or "not allowed" (because it will indeed "allow"..)

(If I were to change anything in English, I'd change "ignore" to "defer", but I can live with "ignore".. in spite of any potential confusion I may have suffered as a "novice" EA admin,  never-the-less I was able, with the aid of some sages here - although not having anything to do with "ignore" - to configure my forum to work as I desired, and that's the ultimate objective, eh?)

However, you are doing the German translations, so I'll respectfully "defer" to your judgement on what German words and phrases are appropriate, and leave those debates to you and @Jorin  :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

[But, that said, if you will permit me a suggestion, may I offer "verschieben" or "woandershin" for consideration? :thinking:  (Hat tip to @Mrs. Chaos :wink:) ]
Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 02:48:29 pm by Steeley

// Deep inside every dilemma lies a solution that involves explosives //