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Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Ok, this will get yer knickers in a twist. Lately I've been looking into concrete5 CMS as I might need to make a site for someone. Some of the custom themes for concrete5 (and the default theme for SilverStripe, which I also checked out) use an interesting method of dealing with responsive menus.

Instead of swapping it all around into little buttons with icons, they just switch to a vertical click menu that's at the top of the page. This is very neat and clean, and allows for as much menu content as you want. Live examples are available on the links below.

Concrete5 custom theme demo

SilverStripe default theme demo

Frankly I think this is a better way of dealing with menus than the current Elk system.

Is that sufficiently annoying? :D
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Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #1

The second one isn't bad but the first looks like a full desktop site on my phone.  Tiny tiny text in a very wide layout.

The one menu as on the silverstripe site is nice in that I don't have to guess what the tiny icons actually mean.  But every action being two clicks would probably be annoying once you know what the various icons do.

Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #2

The coding of the first site might be interfering with the coding of the theme, since the theme is embedded in another page which may have the wrong doctype meta tag (haven't checked). It should be easy enough to get it working properly on a real site. You can see the effect if using it on desktop and pulling the window size around.

I think the best point about this sort of menu, apart from not having to guess what buttons do what, is that you're not limited on menu content. It should also be simpler coding.

Oh and probably simpler customisation too.
Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 07:10:04 pm by Antechinus
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Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #3

I agree there is definitely an upside to it.  (Not even mentioning less font icons is a good thing. :P )

It always seems odd to me that when I turn my phone to landscape mode I can do more things than in portrait.  Like say the admin button disappears in portrait.

Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #4

There are some good responsive menus here, including the mention of a Fastclick plug-in.

More about Fastclick here: http://labs.ft.com/articles/ft-fastclick/

ETA: Just found this too. http://alxgbsn.co.uk/2012/03/12/tap-js-a-lightweight-tap-event-javascript-plugin/
Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 07:23:43 pm by Antechinus
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Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #5

Actually Elk already does drop menus.  Most of the menu icons themselves just drop menus down.  How hard would it be to make the top level menu be a drop down in small screen mode?

Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #6

Should be very easy, which is why I said something along the lines of those demos would probably require less code. Should automatically be click-to-open on small screens too, since hover menus aren't much chop on touchscreen.

TBH, given that mobile-first (or at least touchscreen-first) is the way to go these days, I think the whole menu suystem is far too bloated. The whole reason Superfish* was used to start with is that I talked the SMF crew into using something that would improve the accessability of their drop menu system. Now Elk has Superclick as well as Superfish, and you also have the menu changing to icons with all the rigmarole that involves.

What Elk needs (IMO) is for someone to fork it and clean the menu system up. Just give it one simple and responsive system that works well. That means ditching the sidebar/droppy option too.

*Although Superfish is pretty good for improving general usability of hover-activated drops, it's still far too bloated IMO. Really needs a complete revamp.
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Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #7

You say fork it because this discussion has been had before and this direction has been rejected for Elk?

Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #8

Yup. Although "fork" perhaps sounds more severe than it really is, since the sort of changes that would be required would not affect the rest of Elk. It'd basically be a (fairly substantial) mod instead of a full-on fork.
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Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #9

the menu needs an overhaul, yes.. There are far to many options: dropdown vs. sidebar, click vs. hover.... But that's something we should IMO address in 1.1 or 2.0, definetely not in 1.0.

The problem with all those menus is: You'd need at least 2 touch gestures: one touch for opening the menu, another one for selecting the action, e.g. recent posts.. That's why I personally prefer our current icon menu variant, just one touch for the common actions.


Thorsten "TE" Eurich
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Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #10

Yeah but if you use the FastClick or tap.js plug-ins then there's no 300ms delay on touch, so you could double click so fast that it actually wouldn't be inconvenient in practice. It'd become just as fast and easy as doing a double click with a mouse on desktop. And it's more readable for anyone not familiar with the software. No guessing about which icon does what. And there's no restriction on menu content, and no shenanigans swapping icons and text around. And no problem with icon fonts breaking if people use their own browser settings. Etc, etc.

ETA: I've come to much prefer click droppies instead of hover droppies on desktop, even though I have to do more clicks. They're just so much better behaved than hover drops and the extra clicks are no real drama.

I noticed that the hover drops here have had the mouseout delay pruned back to try and get better all-round behaviour, but it's now so fast that it largely defeats the purpose of having it in the first place (better a11y for anyone with less than perfect tracking skills). Use click menus = no problem. Always predictable and well behaved.
Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 03:51:59 am by Antechinus
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Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #11

Quote from: scripple – You say fork it because this discussion has been had before and this direction has been rejected for Elk?
TBH I don't remember any similar proposal because otherwise I'd have said "do it, it's what I was thinking since a long time".
Anyway, since this is done with javascript, it shouldn't be too difficult to create an addon that overrides all the existing settings and implants this system. ;D

ETA: and that last bit means I agree with TE that is now a bit late to change that too (unless we want to take "beta forever" route... :P
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Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #12

Btw this isn't needed in chrome mobile because they eliminated the 300ms delay months ago for web pages that declare a width to be responsive. (Device-width)

Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #13

Quote from: emanuele –
Quote from: scripple – You say fork it because this discussion has been had before and this direction has been rejected for Elk?
TBH I don't remember any similar proposal because otherwise I'd have said "do it, it's what I was thinking since a long time".
I suggested it way back here: Menus menyooz munyews - them things with all teh linkys in 'em

Check Reply#6 for a jQuery click menu code that will handle any number of menu levels with full mouse and keyboard and touchscreen accessibility. Wrote it myself I did, and it's damned good. Could be combined with tap.js to make it even better for touchscreens. That would make the whole shebang only about as large as the hoverIntent plug-in, and we wouldn't need hoverIntent or Superfish or Superclick.

However, at the time Norv and Spuds were grumbling that they liked hover menus (so there) and some people liked sidebars and some people liked droppies so they would rather add more bloat. So, that's what we got.


QuoteETA: and that last bit means I agree with TE that is now a bit late to change that too (unless we want to take "beta forever" route... :P
Yeah that's why I suggested basically doing it as a mod for 1.0.
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Re: Menu stuff (just to annoy the devs)

Reply #14

mmm... well, what you suggested there look slightly different from what I read in the OP here (here seemed more related only to mobile/low-res converting the menu to a "click here to see the menu" kind of stuff), but okay.

I was not against click, see reply #24, I like hover but I'm not against click (at least not to the level Norv was, I may consider them an annoyance the first times but I would get used). :P

TBH, the main one may have to behave a bit differently from the others, because it is different (for example I'd like to have the click only on the arrow and not on the name, just because 90% of the times I just want to go to the main stuff, the only times I use the entries in the droppy of the main menu is for profile).
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