ElkArte Community

Elk Development => Bug Reports => Exterminated Bugs => Topic started by: Antechinus on July 12, 2013, 10:22:15 pm

Poll
Question: Name the buttons - win a case of beer!
Option 1: Call the staff button "Staff" votes: 0
Option 2: Call the staff button "Manage" votes: 6
Option 3: Call it something else (please specify) votes: 1
Option 4: Call the user's button "Personal" votes: 0
Option 5: Call the user's button by the username votes: 4
Option 6: Call it something else (please specify) votes: 3
Title: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 12, 2013, 10:22:15 pm
Well you can call yours whatever you like, and so can any other admin, so as long as it's clear and not insane I think just about any name is fine for default.

I associate staff with the "staff room", which is what we used to call the private staff boards (and we called them staff boards too, and so do other sites I've been on), so it works for me. Control sounds a bit too megalomanic for my taste. I'm not too worried about it all though. Hey ho.
Ok, carrying on from this, I say we put the button names to a vote and go with whatever gets the most votes. "Community" seems the obvious English choice for  the first one. I favour "Staff" and "Personal" for the other two. TE prefers "Manage" and the user's name. Anyone else got any suggestions they want to put forward?

ETA: Basic array code is here (http://www.elkarte.net/index.php?topic=444.msg3578#msg3578). Still needs slight tweaking.

Changes content depending on the viewer's permissions. If they don't have PM permissions, they just get profile stuff. If they don't have profile permissions, they just get PM stuff. Similar for admins vs mods on the staff tab.


(http://www.elkarte.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=444.0;attach=296;image)




Quote
Anyway speaking of staff page, I had thought that the staff tab (if labelled as such for ordinary member view) would be a handy place to have links to contact form, staff page, etc. Those aren't standard features now, but would be easy to implement and are potentially useful and popular. Admins and mods wouldn't really need to see those pages straight from a tab, so it could make the one tab do three different and useful things, depending on who is looking at it.

Anyway, sleep. Later. :)
This is another thing I think we should do (extra feature stuffz). There's an option in admin to "show contact form in menu" but it doesn't seem to do anything. If it does do something, it's so well hidden that I can't find it. :P

My 2c is that we should have a staff page that is a sub area of the memberlist, with different formatting (ie: more spacious ansd welcoming). The memberlist already sorts by group, so it is easy to make a sub area of it that only pulls out the admin and moderators for listing. These can then be listed according to their group, with nice headings and separators between groups.

The same "Staff" tab should also handle contact forms and any other related stuffz., when ordinary members are looking at it.  Top level title can be changed according to the membergroup of the viewer, as can content.  Easy. :)


Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on July 12, 2013, 11:20:09 pm
Quote
This is another thing I think we should do (extra feature stuffz). There's an option in admin to "show contact form in menu" but it doesn't seem to do anything. If it does do something, it's so well hidden that I can't find it.
Its on the registration page.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 12:55:57 am
Umm, so how is the "in the menu"?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on July 13, 2013, 01:04:12 am
Well after you select registration in the menu, there it is  :P
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 01:14:10 am
Ha. :P That is not "in the menu" as such. It is "in the registration form, hiding well away from the menu, where nobody who wants a contact form at any given time wll be able to find it after they have registered". :P :P

Why don't we provide a contact form that anyone can use at any time?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on July 13, 2013, 01:31:52 am
Yup we could move the form to other spots ... the idea was that its not uncommon for members to have trouble registering and if so there is not a convenient way to contact a human  ... the form was just there for that (and a bit controversial since like any "contact us" thing it can and will be exploited.)  Once they are registered I would think the PM and Posts would be enough though?

emanuele may have some more to add, this was his baby as I recall, I just lifted it :P
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 01:41:53 am
Ok, well that makes sense as far as it goes, but I can recall cases where somebody wanted to contact the staff without registering, or after they have registered and forgot account details. So, since it's common practice for sites to provide contact details (often with a dedicated top level link for the purpose), it seems a bit funny the way it is now.

At the least, the text should be changed in admin, so it's clear what it's currently doing.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on July 13, 2013, 01:42:42 am
emanuele may have some more to add, this was his baby as I recall, I just lifted it :P
??? Really?
I thought you added it... :o
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 01:52:24 am
Also added teh poll. Eessh. We haz orange barz! Must change to something more Elkaceous.

Also CSS needs fixing. Someone keeps borking the CSS! :D
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on July 13, 2013, 02:05:13 am
??? Really?
I thought you added it... :o

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=477765.msg3366002#msg3366002

Now what was that about Ant getting old  :P
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Feature Cat on July 13, 2013, 09:40:21 am
'Manage' or 'Admin' is naturral and usual. Same for the username for their stuff: your username links to your arrea. 'Tis common use.

'Staff' is a terrrible idea IMO: these are tasks, moderation or admin tasks. Functionality. 'Staff' is a terrm talking about the people doing them, not about the tasks. It says "private area where we gossip over a report, even if that's only less than a frraction of what's really here".

Nothing special against 'personal', OTOH. It's just that people are used with their name to lead to profiles, messages, preferrences, in the age of social stuffs all arround us. (call it least surrprise if you will, 'tis a main menu)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 09:51:47 am
K so how's about we make the title "Admin" if they're an admin, and "Moderate" if they're a mod (wot r easy to do coz I already tried it) and then think about making the title say "Staff" or "Contact" or sumpin for ordinary people who might want to get in touch with an admin or mod, and want a nice list of said critters. :)

Swapping the stuff under the tab on the basis of permissions, of course.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on July 13, 2013, 10:54:55 am
??? Really?
I thought you added it... :o

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=477765.msg3366002#msg3366002

Now what was that about Ant getting old  :P
ROFL!
But it's known my brain doesn't remember anything older than 2 days! :P

K so how's about we make the title "Admin" if they're an admin, and "Moderate" if they're a mod (wot r easy to do coz I already tried it)
That's not *so* easy to do.
It would work only if you are using the predefined groups I think.
But if you are using some custom group it would screw up.

Also, if the user is a mod, does the moderate remain a sub-menu?
I tend to think admin and moderate could very well stay separated, in the end is something that very few would have anyway, so it shouldn't be too annoying. Also they could be moved to the end of the row so that the order doesn't change: community | personal | new posts | new replies | moderate | admin
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 11:07:45 am
That's not *so* easy to do.
It would work only if you are using the predefined groups I think.
But if you are using some custom group it would screw up.
Nope, because it relies on exactly the same permissions conditionals that the existing buttons use. It works. :)


Quote
Also, if the user is a mod, does the moderate remain a sub-menu?
No. It basically reverts to a standard "Moderate" tab like we have now.


Quote
I tend to think admin and moderate could very well stay separated, in the end is something that very few would have anyway, so it shouldn't be too annoying.
You mean it will only annoy adminz and they don't count. Adminz might argue with that. :D

Quote
Also they could be moved to the end of the row so that the order doesn't change: community | personal | new posts | new replies | moderate | admin
Better not, IMO. Even staff will (hopefully) be using the forum as a forum, not just as staff. That means they'll want the unread buttons as much as anyone else. Having them at the end is easiest for quick and mindless use. ;)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 11:55:54 am
Just tried username as title for the personal stuff button on local host. It feels wrong. Really weird. :P

I just look at it and think WTF? I want things named for their function. I want to look at title and know what it does.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TestMonkey on July 13, 2013, 06:02:16 pm
Yes, I think it's because it's in-between others... It doesn't feel right. Other applications place it at the end of menu row, or even more, in a corner of its own (like search is).
Username in the middle of the menu row feels odd, things are named by function there.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TE on July 13, 2013, 06:21:25 pm
maybe move it to where the logout button is and make "logout" a child of the username..
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on July 13, 2013, 07:20:34 pm
Then why not the avatar? xref: http://www.elkarte.net/index.php?topic=323.msg2059#msg2059

A "1" like that next to the avatar would almost look like a bubble from a comic strip (funny and nice I think). And if you want to highlight the fact that the avatar has a dropdown use an arrow on the side like gmail for example.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 10:39:41 pm
Yes, I think it's because it's in-between others... It doesn't feel right.
No, that isn't the reason at all. The position is fine. The naming is wrong.


Quote
Other applications place it at the end of menu row, or even more, in a corner of its own (like search is).
I don't care what they do. I just want this one right. :D Hiding it somewhere else is not going to improve things, IMO.


Quote
Username in the middle of the menu row feels odd, things are named by function there.
Good. So we name it by function.


Then why not the avatar? xref: http://www.elkarte.net/index.php?topic=323.msg2059#msg2059

A "1" like that next to the avatar would almost look like a bubble from a comic strip (funny and nice I think). And if you want to highlight the fact that the avatar has a dropdown use an arrow on the side like gmail for example.
Except that if someone has the header collapsed they will miss it all.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 10:50:12 pm
TBH I'd just call it "My Stuff" and be done with it. That works for anyone, because they'll be looking for "My Stuff".

"Hey, where the f ;D k is my stuff? Oh s :P t, there it is right there! My stuff! Awesome!"

Anyone can comprehend that at a glance. Even professsionals or grannies. Let's do it. :)

ETA: Have changed my poll vote. Current 2c is use Admin or Moderate for the staff button (actually, Moderation would be better) depending on whether the user is a mod or admin.

Use "My Stuff" for the PM/profile combo. Aternatively, "My Account" would be ok. Username just feels plain wrong to me.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 11:09:59 pm
 :D
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on July 13, 2013, 11:13:54 pm
ROFL!
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 13, 2013, 11:39:48 pm
I'm enjoying it, but I'm also serious. When I'm scanning a menu in a hurry, that title just totally nails it for me. It's like ........"My Stuff" > Bang. Done.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 14, 2013, 12:38:21 am
Hey had another thought. No http requests, no gfx apps, easy to set up, and good for a11y. These scale perfectly up to any size, and will inherit font colour from the button, so easy for theming there too.

http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2692/index.htm
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2615/index.htm

Code: [Select]
#button_pm .linklevel1, #button_admin .linklevel1 {
padding: 0 0.6em 0 1.9em;
}
#button_pm .linklevel1:before, #button_admin .linklevel1:before {
position: absolute;
display: inline-block;
top: 0.1em;
left: 0.3em;
font-size: 1.5em;
}
#button_pm .linklevel1:before {
content:"\2615";
}
#button_admin .linklevel1:before {
content:"\2692";
}
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: IchBin on July 14, 2013, 12:46:59 am
I like your unicode idea there Ant!
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 14, 2013, 01:38:52 am
Ok, Plan #4756291 Subsection 2 Appendix 4329z..............................  :D  :P  O:-)

Can we maybe agree to handle the personal stuffz title as follows?

My Account is perhaps (perhaps) more neutral in tone and "professional" (meaning boring) than "My Stuff", even though I am sure 99% of professionals would be fine with the latter. It's also clearly labelling by function.

So, if someone has profile permissions but not PM permissions, just give them a "My Account" title with profile stuffz in the droppy.

If they have PM permissions but not profile permissions, give them a "My Messages" title with PM stuffz in the droppy.

If they have both PM and profile permissions, give them a "My Account" title with both PM and profile stuff in the droppy (PM first, as it will probably be used more often) and...

if they also have new PM's, change the title to "My Messages", along with the usual numeric indicator. This would just be an extra bit of eye-catching when they have new PM's.

Array code works like this:

Code: [Select]
			'pm' => array(
'title' => $context['allow_pm'] && (!$context['allow_edit_profile'] || $context['user']['unread_messages'] > 0) ? $txt['pm_short'] : 'My Account',
'href' => $context['allow_pm'] ? $scripturl . '?action=pm' : $scripturl . '?action=profile',
'show' => $context['allow_pm'] || $context['allow_edit_profile'],
'sub_buttons' => array(

 
I like your unicode idea there Ant!
Yeah they kinda cute. I like them. I wouldn't bother with doing them on every button, in part because there aren't enough good utf8 thingies for every button*, but for those two buttons I think they're probably a good idea.

*There are a lot of thingies, but most of them woudn't be suitable.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 14, 2013, 03:33:48 am
Had another thought (dammit). The calendar and memebrlist shouldn't really have an extra level in the menu, IMO.

They only have two options each, and one of them is linked from the second level anyway (ie: the basic view option). What with having to change cursor direction and grab the other target, it's arguably easier to just hit the second level link, get to either calendar or memberlist, then choose what you want to do once you're there. This is partcularly the case if you're using click menus.

I think the third level should be kept for areas that actually have enough options to make a third level useful. So, I reckon we just have basic calendar and memberlist links under the Community button, and leave it at that. It'll simplify our array, and wont really be noticeably less convenient for users.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 14, 2013, 05:55:21 am
Ha! Unicode! Everyone will support Unicode right? No chance, sunshine. :P

Get this: I found some nice Unicode thingies that would do for the relevant buttons. Got them positioned and sized well in Firefox, then decide to check other browsers.

So Opera is fine. Webkit and IE and not. They don't support the required characters. Yes, you heard right. Webkit and IE do not have comprehensive UTF8 character support.

This means that we can't use those nifty scalable icons. We'd have to make our own blah blah blah. Or, we just give Firefox and Opera nifty icons and give the others the finger.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on July 14, 2013, 10:15:22 am

Hey had another thought. No http requests, no gfx apps, easy to set up, and good for a11y. These scale perfectly up to any size, and will inherit font colour from the button, so easy for theming there too.

I'd just like to point out that if you want to go that way, you'll have to provide a fallback for browsers that don't support the full Unicode set... For instance, none of these show up on my Galaxy S3. And I've got plenty of additional fonts installed on it in root mode... It's just that the main font doesn't have the full Unicode, only *most* of the ranges. It does away with so many symbolic ranges.

I know-- I tried myself, months ago... Was bitterly disappointed. Well, I went ahead with it in some situations, but don't forget that some browsers don't simply 'hide' an unavailable character, they show a square in its place...

Re: OP, I merged the Admin and Moderate menus a couple of years ago for Wedge, and haven't looked back ever since. Don't bother with making Moderate a sub-menu -- just add a separator!
Oh, wait, SMF doesn't support separators..? I don't remember. It's so old for me...

:edit: Quick edit is (still?) broken. Also, I can like my own posts... Which is fine by me, but make sure it's settable in the admin area!
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on July 14, 2013, 11:00:07 am
It appears that I missed a post, and subsequently got ninja'd.

Quick edit works on my s3. Interesting.

Oh, yes, sometimes a browser will require q neutral font such as Aerial to display the full Unicode. But it still doesn't work on mobile.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 14, 2013, 11:33:04 am
I'd rather have a sub menu than a separator in this case, although ideally I'd like the option of both. I have thought about coding for separators. They're available in the poster dropdown (just hard code 'em in) but not in the main menu arrays. Wouldn't be hard to arrange.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on July 14, 2013, 11:42:08 am
Thought of the day: I would remove completely the "search" button in the members page.
Instead I would add directly the search box (that anyway would be a duplicate of the one at the top) with a kind of dropdown "onfocus" to show the options. Opinions?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 14, 2013, 11:44:45 am
Yeah that could work. Not a bad plan.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on July 14, 2013, 12:12:09 pm
That may also count as reducing the number of pages/templates around Elk! :D
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 14, 2013, 12:32:15 pm
Yeah but it'll still mean making one combined one not look like crap, so just as much work. :D
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on July 14, 2013, 01:58:57 pm
But make it look nice is your field, not mine. :P
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 14, 2013, 02:01:33 pm
Yeah I know.  ;D
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TestMonkey on July 14, 2013, 03:54:52 pm
Quote
Other applications place it at the end of menu row, or even more, in a corner of its own (like search is).
I don't care what they do. I just want this one right. :D Hiding it somewhere else is not going to improve things, IMO.

For example: imagine it to the right of the Search thing. "Antechinus". Dropdown, with a few stuffs, like My Account, My Messages, etc, and Logout last.
It's not hidden (it's more visible than an item with the rest of the menu IMHO). It's just different.

I'm not convinced it'd be better, though. Good ole' menu will do fine too.

ETA: oh, or instead of where logout is this week! ;D

/me missed that.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on July 14, 2013, 04:26:32 pm
Yeah but it'll still mean making one combined one not look like crap, so just as much work. :D
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/2728/qve0.png

Apart from the slightly misaligned things. ;)

https://github.com/emanuele45/Dialogo/tree/members_search
In particular:
https://github.com/emanuele45/Dialogo/commit/3133bde993c499f33f679997c36119c58d1d4515
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Feature Cat on July 14, 2013, 05:41:06 pm
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/2728/qve0.png

Likes!  8)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on July 14, 2013, 06:43:05 pm
Ok, Plan #4756291 Subsection 2 Appendix 4329z..............................  :D  :P  O:-)

Can we maybe agree to handle the personal stuffz title as follows?

My Account is perhaps (perhaps) more neutral in tone and "professional" (meaning boring) than "My Stuff", even though I am sure 99% of professionals would be fine with the latter. It's also clearly labelling by function.

So, if someone has profile permissions but not PM permissions, just give them a "My Account" title with profile stuffz in the droppy.

Like.

If they have PM permissions but not profile permissions, give them a "My Messages" title with PM stuffz in the droppy.

If they have both PM and profile permissions, give them a "My Account" title with both PM and profile stuff in the droppy (PM first, as it will probably be used more often) and...

if they also have new PM's, change the title to "My Messages", along with the usual numeric indicator. This would just be an extra bit of eye-catching when they have new PM's.

Don't like, this would be fairly confusing. IMHO, find a term and stick with it. If message notifications are inappropriate for My Account, then either split them or find a different name for the link.

Also, why does [Like]ing a post make the page refresh and do nothing? I must have [Like]ed Ant's Calendar/Memberlist basic link post about three times, yet it simply refreshed the page and showed me nothing. Did someone break it, or did they just bork the implementation?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: FF / MFG on July 14, 2013, 06:48:09 pm
Like (and unlike) works for me...
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TestMonkey on July 14, 2013, 10:37:27 pm
/me thinks someone made an Eliana-only version.   :-X
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 14, 2013, 11:41:58 pm
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/2728/qve0.png

Apart from the slightly misaligned things. ;)

https://github.com/emanuele45/Dialogo/tree/members_search
In particular:
https://github.com/emanuele45/Dialogo/commit/3133bde993c499f33f679997c36119c58d1d4515
Yup basic idea is ok, but I think I'd be more inclined to handle it like the other search form: slide down advanced stuffz panel. Keep it out of the pagesection area, just to make things easier there.

I've never been all that keen on the letter links in the header bar either. They chew a lot of width, particularly if someone ups their font size, and they're almost unusable on touch screen. We should think about giving the whole page a bit of a revamp IMO.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 14, 2013, 11:45:33 pm
For example: imagine it to the right of the Search thing. "Antechinus". Dropdown, with a few stuffs, like My Account, My Messages, etc, and Logout last.
It's not hidden (it's more visible than an item with the rest of the menu IMHO). It's just different.

I'm not convinced it'd be better, though. Good ole' menu will do fine too.
I still think having the username as the ttle is completely unnatural, and doesn't really tell me anything useful. Every time I look at it, having tried it on local, I think "WTF is this sh :P t?". If it makes me react like that, I think it's likely some other people will react the same way. What is wrong with labelling menu items by function? (novel concept, patent applied for)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on July 15, 2013, 01:13:00 am
/me thinks someone made an Eliana-only version.   :-X

I'm starting to think so. Doesn't work on FF or Chrome for me. :(

Are my permissions set right? Is [Like] respecting permissions well?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on July 15, 2013, 02:18:11 am
I'm starting to think so. Doesn't work on FF or Chrome for me. :(

Are my permissions set right? Is [Like] respecting permissions well?
(another) Small bug ... I've fixed it in my local will make a PR in a bit ... for you once you get 5 posts its will work.  There is a under post limit setting that is not working correctly ATM.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on July 15, 2013, 03:35:06 am
Yay, I'm not crazy!
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 16, 2013, 01:00:12 am
Had an idea. I'm adding a link to recent posts in the Community droppy. Guests don't get the unread stuff, so figured it might be handy to give them a menu link to recent. Not worth a top level tab, as logged members rarely use recent, AFAICT.

Did think about echoing it in the top level for guests only, but figured that would lead to bleating and confusion when people logged in (hey where is button kthnx?). Droppy seems like the best option. :)

Also, have put dividers between the admin/moderate sections and PM/profile sections in those two droppies. Since "moderate" and "profile" are the only .subsections list elements in those droppies, I just targeted them with css via top button id, and gave them a bit of extra padding and a top border. Works well there, but not recommended for all droppies as it would get over the top (would have dividers between every link in admin droppies, for instance).
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 16, 2013, 02:42:56 am
Hey question about menu arrays, while I'm mutating menus.

Code: [Select]
				'is_last' => !$context['right_to_left'],

This is_last stuff: is that just a styling hook? It seems to be, because the software doesn't give a rat's if you include it or not. Runs quite happily with or without it.

If it's just a styling hook, my 2c is we ditch it. Not needed, and will likely never be used. It also gets in the way when it comes to splitting and/or amalgamating menus.

For example, the log out button is now floated right, which means it has to be first in the arrays. This is neccessary to make it work with right float in a bunch of left floated friends. So, although visually it is "last", in array/markup terms it is not.

ETA: NVM. Read the SMF docs. Yes, it is just styling stuff. IIRC it's a leftover from the old core theme, which used a funny gif for the last buttonz. We don't need it. Suggest deprecating.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on July 16, 2013, 08:55:50 am
Suggest deprecating.
Just drop it if it is useless! :P

I think the "My stuff" button would be much more useful/usable without the sub-menu "profile" and just a separator and the three entries there, but that's something we can adjust at any time in the future. ;)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 16, 2013, 11:38:51 am
Ok, fair enough. Hey how about we add in an option for separators in the array? That way they could be put anywhere, and wouldn't have to rely on targeting the subsections class. That'd be more useful than the old last stuff. Something like:

Code: [Select]
					'profile' => array(
'title' => $txt['profile'],
'href' => $scripturl . '?action=profile',
'show' => $context['allow_edit_profile'],
'divider' => true,
'sub_buttons' => array(

Then that adds a class in the template for css targeting. Would be best if it could be just left out of the array if false. That would make life a little easier.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TestMonkey on July 18, 2013, 12:29:49 am
Yes, a divider is a better solution here. It will also be handy for customizations of menus, to separate things their own way.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 18, 2013, 12:57:37 am
I might try my hand at that one, if someone doesn't beat me to it.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on July 18, 2013, 06:38:54 am
Separators work very well in general ;)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TestMonkey on July 18, 2013, 07:54:25 am
Re: username for the user area.
 I think there's a communication disconnect here in this topic, because I see username more popular, and Ant keeps replying on unrelated points. All good if it doesn't seem an idea to stay, but I'd suggest to understand well what exactly is being proposed here and why it is natural.

You know how they say. Pictures are still worth a lot of them words. Here's a quick shot (attached) of a random example.
Also this screenshot (from a topic which I'm afraid I had missed) is IMHO on the same track to show what is meant by user corner:
http://www.elkarte.net/index.php?topic=323.msg2059#msg2059
Not on the avatar, but on the username instead. In a corner of the screen. *Not inside the menu.*

Diaspora, G+, etc, do this, and the idea is very simple. When you're logged in, you have your name on the page. Permanently.
My name indicates my space. I can go to account, to profile, and perhaps to messages. I can also logout from there. When I log out, my name is not on the page. It's the login instead. The name is the blatantly obvious indicator (even for me!) that I'm logged in there and now, and my stuff is available. Under it.

Around this, is, I believe, the point of the username.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 18, 2013, 08:55:14 am
Yes I knew what you meant. I have seen that arrangement in several apps, but honestly I don't like it. For one thing, the tiny avatar gets too tiny IMO. It gets to the point where most avatars that people actually use just become blurry/pixellated little eyesores, which detract from the gui rather than adding to it.

The only way of avoiding that would be to make the avatar larger than would be desirable for a compact top bar. That's just hogs space and looks stupid, which will make people want to hide it, but they wont be able to.  So, if you want that type of layout, I'd have no avatar at all up there. It'll look better in practice.

The other thing is I just like having all the menu stuff in the one place, and I like things named for their functonality. It just seems more natural to me. It's still easy to tell when I'm logged in or logged out. I don't see any log in form or buttons when I'm logged in. :D
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TestMonkey on July 18, 2013, 09:09:56 am
Personally I entirely agree that avatar doesn't necessarily belong there. Only the username. (the avatar can be part of a larger collapsible area, as it is, I guess).
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on July 18, 2013, 09:27:28 am
I think it may make sense if positioned completely out of the menu.
Inside the menu instead it looks a bit weird...
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: IchBin on July 18, 2013, 07:29:32 pm
Both facebook and github have the avatar in the username menu. I don't think it looks that bad. Plus everyone see's their own avatar anyway. Not like you can't tell what it is or anything. I'd be fine if it was left out, but don't see the problem with it being there too. I like Norv's screenshot FWIW.

Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on July 18, 2013, 10:10:55 pm
Quote
I like Norv's screenshot FWIW.
  So do I ... (even though its not family friendly  O:-) )
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 19, 2013, 01:24:23 am
Well TBH, I think that area on Gthub looks like a cluttered mess. The avatar there on Github doesn't annoy me for two reasons. First, I don't use one on Github anyway, so I just get the faded grey icon, which is less of an eyesore than my avatar shrunk to that scale would be. Second, the whole area is such a cluttered mess anyway that it'd be hard to make it look worse.


Both facebook and github have the avatar in the username menu. I don't think it looks that bad. Plus everyone see's their own avatar anyway. Not like you can't tell what it is or anything.
I can tell what it is, but it looks totally crap at that scale and in that location. There's just enough detail to "tell what it is", but not enough to make it a useful or pleasant addition to the interface. There is a reason people want avatars at least 100x100 for general use.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: IchBin on July 19, 2013, 01:47:59 am
People of course want avatars 100x100, so they can see everyone else. Most users don't spend time looking at their own avatar. Especially in a profile spot where the name is the indicator. Either way, I'm fine with whatever everyone decides.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 19, 2013, 08:00:38 am
Yeah I'm not going to fight to the death about it. I'm just not keen on things that I think look silly. Every time my eyes pass over an av that is shrunk to that extent, the reaction it evokes can be summed up as "Hey some twit shrunk my avatar into a pointless, miniscule, pixellated piece of bat poo." Every time. I notice visual details.

If all the cool kids are doing their interfaces so they look like random bats just happened to defecate in inappropriate locations, that's their problem. Don't see why it should be my problem too. :)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TestMonkey on July 19, 2013, 09:08:46 am
I'll update the site once we manage to review and pull in Ant's latest PR. It makes the menu cleaner, less agglomerated, which along with Ema's search tweak will be nice for us others to play around with.
We'lI give a try to the admin/mod combo as well (a bit I have some doubts on real usefulness).

This topic will remain open, and since Ant didn't set a time on the poll, votes continue to be welcome. But the username for profile/settings most likely makes sense as a separate 'user corner'. That's a bigger layout change that intended to be discussed in this topic, and its proponents are welcome to make a PR on it.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on July 19, 2013, 12:44:33 pm
I'm definitely in favor of a user corner for links and notifications and such. I really couldn't care less if the avatar is displayed somewhere around there. It follows the trend in many websites, but I understand the arguments against it. It could always be a theme option with the default turned off.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 19, 2013, 02:03:39 pm
I'll update the site once we manage to review and pull in Ant's latest PR. It makes the menu cleaner, less agglomerated, which along with Ema's search tweak will be nice for us others to play around with.
We'lI give a try to the admin/mod combo as well (a bit I have some doubts on real usefulness).
That one does make the array a bit complicated, which may be an issue for some people. I'd be happy with it combined or with it left as the old style.

Quote
But the username for profile/settings most likely makes sense as a separate 'user corner'. That's a bigger layout change that intended to be discussed in this topic, and its proponents are welcome to make a PR on it.
It's not at all hard to do. I could code it up pretty quickly. I'd just like it to look as clean as possible if we're going that way.


I'm definitely in favor of a user corner for links and notifications and such.
If you want to wear pointy hat and sit in the corner, go for it. :P

It could always be a theme option with the default turned off.
User option, so dumb admins can't force it in people's faces. :D
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TestMonkey on July 19, 2013, 08:22:27 pm
Quote
But the username for profile/settings most likely makes sense as a separate 'user corner'. That's a bigger layout change that intended to be discussed in this topic, and its proponents are welcome to make a PR on it.
It's not at all hard to do. I could code it up pretty quickly.
That's not what I meant. It ain't no a competition to "prove" how hard or easy it is to do. It's an open source project where *everyone* - and that means those who want the trick - is welcome to step up and do it. Those who want it have volunteered to code it. ;) (I haz a feeling Brad did.)
You'll be welcome to review their PR.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 19, 2013, 11:48:18 pm
I wasn't saying it was a competition. :P You said it was a "bigger change in layout". My point was that it's easy enough to incorporate. We already have the conditionals for maintenance mode warnings up there, and as mentioned I had always intended that area to be used for more important things than the timestamp (with maybe timestamp as fallback content for those without some options).
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 20, 2013, 12:58:39 am
Hey thought: user option.

Really, I do like the old school setup where the My Account stuff is in the menu with the rest. It's more natural than hunting for it in some odd corner. We could always provide people* with a choice: either have the FB style where it's shoved into a corner with a piece of bat poo next to it, or have it all in the menu where it belongs. :)

*Meaning people, not admins.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on July 20, 2013, 01:19:15 am
Hey thought: user option.

Really, I do like the old school setup where the My Account stuff is in the menu with the rest. It's more natural than hunting for it in some odd corner. We could always provide people* with a choice: either have the FB style where it's shoved into a corner with a piece of bat poo next to it, or have it all in the menu where it belongs. :)

*Meaning people, not admins.

No, make a choice and keep major design ideas consistent. Either make a user corner/area/whatchamakallit or don't, but don't offer fifty options in the default installation. That means 502 possibilities to text exhaustively to make sure that it works with every combination, and it makes you look indecisive. Let mods and themes do design differences in the final product, not user options.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 20, 2013, 02:20:55 am
Ok, I have decided there are better things to argue about than bat poo in a corner, since it's pretty obvious that most of you want it. I have no effing idea why you want it, but apparently you do. Must be some mild form of fairly innocuous mental illness or something. :D

One request: can we keep a visible log out button, and not hide that in a user droppy? I'll often log into a site, catch up with anything relevant, and then log out again without even looking at my profile/PM stuff. This means I want an easily findable log out button, just as I want an easily findable log in form. IMO, both should be on permanent display (form for guests, button for logged members).

And, if we can manage to agree on this compromise, I would strongly prefer that button to over at the right next to the upshrink button, as already coded. That location is a good one, IMO. The log in and register buttons are also in the main menu (and please don't suggest hiding those in a corner).
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 20, 2013, 02:32:22 am
Come to think of it, how many log in and register links does one page need? Take the current arrangement.

There's the greeting thingy at upper right for guests: "Welcome to Elk Molestation and Bondage Dungeon. Please login or register."

Then there's the Log in and Register buttons in the main menu.

Then there's the quick log in form in the bit below the menu.

This seems a bit overkill for what is basic functionality. I think it could be rationalised a bit. Suggestion: the greeting at upper right serves no valuable purpose, as far as I can see. Also, the text in the log in form is really a no brainer. Anyone capable of using a forum app knows to log in with their username and password. The inputs even have placeholder text. So, how about we just give a basic greeting above the form and leave it at that?

"Welcome to Elk Molestation and Bondage Dungeon"
[Username] [Password] [Session length] [Shiny button]

We don't need to tell people to "please log in or register". They'll do it if they want to. If they don't want to, it's none of our business. The register button in the menu should stay, but the log in one could well be regarded as redundant.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 26, 2013, 01:16:51 am
Ay up. Hey are people more or less thinking we should just go back to having the old, separate, Admin and Moderate buttonz at top level? I'm more or less convinced it's the best option, especially if user stuff is being moved to the upper right corner.

If we go back to two buttonz for admin and mod, that should simplify sorting out the indicators too. Not that they couldn't be sorted the way it is now, but still.

If everyone's cool with it, I might just put the admin and mod arrays back the way they wre.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TestMonkey on July 26, 2013, 02:39:15 am
Yes, it makes sense.
The point has been made, that a main menu item should really link to a single area, with its sidebar and all. Not to two. I think it has been my feeling too, playing with them on local. I use sidebars always, it might be even more obvious then. So unless we merge them (and admin is huge already), a single menu button for both seems more or less unnatural.

(For profile and PMs, it's reportedly even more odd at the moment, but we can sort that I guess.)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on July 31, 2013, 10:05:24 pm
Well if people want all the user stuff at top right, labelled by user name, it's going to have to be one button for pm's and profile.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on August 23, 2013, 06:33:21 pm
Just as a random thought, I added this to Wedge today. Don't know if it's an idea you're interesting in but it was inspired by this thread.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on August 24, 2013, 04:14:31 pm
Very cool thing there! :D

/me likes it
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on August 24, 2013, 06:56:32 pm
Well, it was, but apparently I did it all wrong and that it should never have been separated from the notifications menu or anything because apparently PMs are a type of notification and now the mobile layout has to be all changed.

But what would I know? I'm not a Wedge developer any more.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: IchBin on August 24, 2013, 07:31:07 pm
Well none of us are wedge developers either. Welcome to the club! ;)

 You guys must have had an argument and now you are not developing for wedge?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on August 24, 2013, 07:49:28 pm
Yup, this feature was the straw that broke the camel's back. I proposed it 6 weeks ago, complete with a mock-up and when I finally implemented it, there's some extra JS in it (because everything else was already prematurely optimised), and it's then that it comes out how it's not quite what Nao thought I was going to do and he started rewriting it. But I've had it for months where most things I wrote got rewritten in the name of optimisation (even when it backed things into a corner) and I finally had enough of holding back my thoughts in the name of keeping things ticking over.

It should be telling that I was writing a portal for the primary purpose of being able to justify adding the same features to Wedge because I didn't feel I could voice my thoughts otherwise.

There's much much more stuff I've bitten my tongue over but given that some things have changed on a personal level, I just can't do that any more. I'm mulling over my options but I have a feeling I know what I'll be working on next - and a forum is only a smaller part of it.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on August 25, 2013, 01:15:06 am

Yup, this feature was the straw that broke the camel's back. I proposed it 6 weeks ago, complete with a mock-up

...which I didn't see. I never lied to you, I work best when focusing on a few topics, and I can't multi-task like you, so I skip entire topics, and rely on you to nudge me if there's anything important I didn't give my opinion on; because, basically, if I don't participate in a topic, it means I've skipped it.


Quote
and when I finally implemented it, there's some extra JS in it (because everything else was already prematurely optimised),

Not prematurely... It's just my usual way of handling JavaScript.
If I didn't "prematurely optimize", when should I optimize? After we go public? Well, that means in years, right..? At a point in time when we don't even know if I'll have any interest in optimizing the JS code..?
I just like tight code, that's all. Especially code that gets transmitted over HTTP, like JS. PHP is certainly not an issue.


Quote
and it's then that it comes out how it's not quite what Nao thought I was going to do

I didn't know what you were going to do. You told me, last week, that you wanted to have the PM stuff in a popup similar to the notifications one; I told you you could work on it if you wanted, because I was focusing on other features. That's all I knew. Now, although I didn't know you were doing things this way, and even though I tweaked the code to be more in line with 'regular' notifications, I only did it because it felt more logical to me. I didn't think it through, but OTOH I only updated a dozen lines of code, or something. Really nothing horrible. And I told you, years ago, that it was okay to revert someone else's changes, as long as you explained why.

Fact is, you didn't even explain why you wanted a revert. Instead, you became very agitated and even a bit insulting ("FFS"?! Was my commit REALLY worth that comment?! I reverted my biggest changes before committing the little ones, and still it's too outrageous to keep your cool?), as a result I think *you* have a problem right now, not me.


Quote
and he started rewriting it. But I've had it for months where most things I wrote got rewritten in the name of optimisation (even when it backed things into a corner) and I finally had enough of holding back my thoughts in the name of keeping things ticking over.

Now we're talking.
So, you've been lying to me about being okay with my constant tweaking.
That's bad. That's not how you work with people.

I adapted myself to your system. I thought you'd adjusted to mine as well. We met halfway through. That was how the team worked. Never tied to anything, but always asking ourselves, "would my partner be okay with this commit?"... As a result, I was more demanding of myself, and you were of yourself. At least, I thought so.


Quote
It should be telling that I was writing a portal for the primary purpose of being able to justify adding the same features to Wedge because I didn't feel I could voice my thoughts otherwise.

...And you couldn't just tell me your plans, and see if I was excited or unsure about them?

I know that you've been wanting to make Wedge a full-fledged CMS for some time, so it was nothing new to me; I never said "never", and in fact I think 95% of your planned changes went through without any objection on my part. Even some areas where I could have objected (the complete removal of the 'approved' column for instance), I agreed upon.


Quote
There's much much more stuff I've bitten my tongue over but given that some things have changed on a personal level, I just can't do that any more. I'm mulling over my options but I have a feeling I know what I'll be working on next - and a forum is only a smaller part of it.

Well, I'm sure you'll have no problems finding another partner who accepts that you're going to leave them whenever you want, because you were 'frustrated' with things that you never talked about.

Good for you.

To think that you did this to me just a couple of days after I told you privately what I was going through IRL... Empathy isn't really your thing, I guess?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on August 25, 2013, 03:13:19 am
While I didn't really want to get into this here, it's not our playground...

Quote
...which I didn't see. I never lied to you, I work best when focusing on a few topics, and I can't multi-task like you, so I skip entire topics, and rely on you to nudge me if there's anything important I didn't give my opinion on; because, basically, if I don't participate in a topic, it means I've skipped it.

Even though I mentioned it subsequently, you even asked for a link, and I gave you one. I assumed you were OK with it as I'd outlined. Which is as implemented as described in this topic.

Quote
If I didn't "prematurely optimize", when should I optimize? After we go public? Well, that means in years, right..? At a point in time when we don't even know if I'll have any interest in optimizing the JS code..?
I just like tight code, that's all. Especially code that gets transmitted over HTTP, like JS. PHP is certainly not an issue.

The problem is - and to be honest this is something that I'd suggest the Elk guys take note of - optimisation generally implies you've done all the main stuff for now and aren't actively rewriting it.

Rewriting JS *regularly* to shave individual bytes off here and there, as well as rewriting CSS regularly... these are things normally reserved for beta once all the core dev is out the way.

I've mentioned, numerous times, that all the skins I made were broken. Pretty much every break was not because core style was updated with new things but because it was rewritten to shave more bytes off. It's small wonder that in a year I've released 3 sites based on SMF and not Wedge for the sheer sake of not having to deal with that.

Quote
I didn't know what you were going to do. You told me, last week, that you wanted to have the PM stuff in a popup similar to the notifications one; I told you you could work on it if you wanted, because I was focusing on other features. That's all I knew.

I said I was going to do it based on what I'd already talked about, and I assumed you knew what I meant. The trouble is, after I made it - and it worked exactly as I'd outlined, you decided that you didn't like how I'd written it and immediately started rewriting it. Partly structurally, partly aesthetically. Had you come and spoken to me about the changes, I would have been OK, but it wasn't. It was straight up you changing it because it didn't suit your style of aesthetics. It was my first proper commit after two months out and I come back to have it dissected and pulled apart. I didn't exactly feel appreciated by that. It just made me feel as though I'd turned in some half-baked work and it wasn't good enough.

I don't object to the changes so much. I object more to the fact that you're just rewriting it without at least checking with me about what I had in mind at the time.

Only I've had that feeling pretty much the last three years. I accepted I was inadequate and tried to do better in future. I can't live up to your expectations, and that's how it is. But it's not the first time when we've seen something, I've suggested one thing, you've said something else, we never reached a decision but because I didn't change anything, you just assumed I was happy with what you were doing.

The thing is, when I sent you that big long PM, I tried to explain this feeling, that I've not been happy with it, that I've not been able to live up to your expectations. And yes, if you want to put it like that, I have been lying to you. I've been so afraid of telling you how I really feel, because I always considered it my fault that I couldn't live up to your expectations, that I didn't want to work on things because I was both afraid of having it all rewritten yet again and/or not in line with what you wanted.

Quote
Fact is, you didn't even explain why you wanted a revert. Instead, you became very agitated and even a bit insulting ("FFS"?! Was my commit REALLY worth that comment?! I reverted my biggest changes before committing the little ones, and still it's too outrageous to keep your cool?), as a result I think *you* have a problem right now, not me.

Oh, I'm well aware I have problems. My problem is that I can't fit your ideal. I've never been able to, and I can't cope with trying to any more. So when you pull apart my first commit in months, I couldn't handle it. I'm sorry I overreacted, but by the same stroke, none of what came out yesterday should have been news to anyone. I even tried to tell you this and couldn't manage it.

Quote
Now we're talking.
So, you've been lying to me about being okay with my constant tweaking.
That's bad. That's not how you work with people.

Yes, if you want to put it that way, yes, I lied about being happy with the fact that you consistently and continually rewrite everything. Never mind the times I have flat out said this is a problem, never mind the times I've pointed out my frustrations with it. Never mind the times I've felt constrained from doing anything because of upsetting you in the execution thereof.

None of this is new. It's been outlined numerous times on wedge.org. A long time ago we stopped communicating.

Mind you, since you want full disclosure, I guess now's the time to point out a certain other home truth. There are multiple people who have come to me and said that they have feedback which was duly provided but they felt like they couldn't tell you their opinions. I understand that only too well - so yes, I omitted certain truths because I genuinely felt it was better for you not to know. I'm sorry I lied to you about that too, if you look at it like that.

Quote
I adapted myself to your system. I thought you'd adjusted to mine as well. We met halfway through. That was how the team worked. Never tied to anything, but always asking ourselves, "would my partner be okay with this commit?"... As a result, I was more demanding of myself, and you were of yourself. At least, I thought so.

What system?

Having a bug tracking system? That went the way of the dodo years ago.
Using *any* kind of standard for code organisation? The only standard is the one that Wedge has, something I've not liked for some time and have mentioned this more than once (c.f. autoloading)

In fact the only 'system' I think I ever managed to implement was to use some object orientation, which you took and ran with far beyond anything I'd ever imagined. But that's not really 'adapting to my system'.

Why do you think I only committed infrequently? I tried to get everything right before I committed, and screwed that up many times, but if I sincerely waited with 'will Nao be OK with this?' before I committed, I believe I'd never have committed anything.

For example, the admin panel revamp, you weren't keen on, and we met in the middle about it - but I've always kind of thought that was you just going with it because you didn't have anything better.

The moderation filters stuff, you've said you're not happy with... but again neither of us had anything better.

Warnings/infractions... same deal, really.

In fact, I think the only thing that you never really touched, pulled apart or complained about was the plugin manager, and that was because of your stated dislike of writing plugins.

I never demanded anything of you. I never expected anything of you. I expected more of myself and was found wanting. So yes, the problem is mine. Which is why I made the choice I did. Is that really so wrong? We're not exactly on the best of speaking terms, because one or other of us stopped listening a long time ago, and you can't fix a problem when you're not on speaking terms.

Quote
I know that you've been wanting to make Wedge a full-fledged CMS for some time, so it was nothing new to me; I never said "never", and in fact I think 95% of your planned changes went through without any objection on my part. Even some areas where I could have objected (the complete removal of the 'approved' column for instance), I agreed upon.

Actually, yes you did. I wanted to make the forum a module and you said no to it. To me having a CMS implies having the forum as part of the puzzle but not the 800lb gorilla in the room. Several of the other things I've talked about that tie into that were all things you've never been keen on. (Menu manager, page functionality)

What removal of the approved column? I was going to rename it and add more stuff to the same flag (to cover deleted as well) but never remove it. Removing it would mean removing post moderation and that isn't going to happen.

Quote
Well, I'm sure you'll have no problems finding another partner who accepts that you're going to leave them whenever you want, because you were 'frustrated' with things that you never talked about.

I never talked about them because I believed that you wouldn't listen if I pointed them out, or because I was too afraid of hurting your feelings.

Quote
To think that you did this to me just a couple of days after I told you privately what I was going through IRL... Empathy isn't really your thing, I guess?

Empathy may not be my strongest point, but listening sure as hell isn't yours. Did you notice I *specifically* told you to take it easy on coding?

I'm not great at empathy, I'm a geek with autistic tendencies. But it was your RL stuff that made it clear that things couldn't go on. If you want to look at it the way you're looking at it, I couldn't keep lying to you. I couldn't keep it together. I don't see it the same way you do, I don't actually see it as lying to you, I see it as trying to rationalise everything as my fault and my inability to adapt to you and not telling you that I failed miserably with that. But I couldn't do that any more.

I don't know whether it's that I can't work with you, or you can't work with me, or what it is, but I know that the team just doesn't work any more. And I'm sorry, because we had a lot of fun and built some really cool stuff - but I've had the feeling for too long that we were indulging our personal desires rather than actually building things that other people would use. This is why I said that if you were to release Wedge now that people would be disappointed. But that's another truth I masked for too long to spare your feelings.

Ultimately, I've done the one thing that, to me, represented the best for Wedge's development - I removed myself from it, because it's clear from this that you wouldn't be able to trust me, and besides why would you want me to contribute knowing that every commit I write, you're going to rewrite anyway.

That's my kind of empathy for you: trying not to hurt you, but like most of what I do where other people are concerned, it backfired. I have been weighed, I have been measured, and I have been found wanting. And I'm sorry, for whatever that means to you.

@The Elk guys, I'm sorry this came out here. We shouldn't be stealing your space to air our dirty laundry. There are maybe some lessons to learn from this though.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on August 25, 2013, 04:17:31 am
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@The Elk guys, I'm sorry this came out here. We shouldn't be stealing your space to air our dirty laundry. There are maybe some lessons to learn from this though.
No worries ... as indeed there are some very good lessons to note here.  Many of the things said by both of you I'm guilty of doing/thinking/saying/etc so it provides some good items to ponder.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on August 25, 2013, 06:34:47 pm
While I didn't really want to get into this here, it's not our playground...
At least, it's neutral ground.

Oh, why did you hit Like on rev 2222, like, yesterday, after you decided to leave..? Mixed signals...

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Even though I mentioned it subsequently, you even asked for a link, and I gave you one. I assumed you were OK with it as I'd outlined. Which is as implemented as described in this topic.
Seriously, I don't remember you pointing me to this.
Is this it?
http://wedge.org/pub/8215/decluttering-rejigging-the-top-menu-a-little/
If yes, it's a bit of a long post, and as I said in the topic, I didn't read it entirely.
I didn't read the rest of the topic, either. From what I see in your answer, you got upset about my reply, even though I was actually serious about reverting my sidebar code... (And I'm still considering it as an option, really. The current sidebar is nice, but a bit removed from what I originally wanted, which was a Facebook app-like sidebar. Not that this kind of sidebar is perfect either, but...)
So, yeah, apparently because I suggested that you could revert my code, you thought I was being ironic, which means that you believe my code is sanctified or something, when it is not. There are so many things you implemented better than I did; I have the utmost respect for your quality of code, and I think it's a shame that you seem to think otherwise. You clearly have self-esteem issues, well, we all do, but we have to work on them, haven't we..?
I'm at an advantage here, because I've been through a lot in my life, and I've reached a position where, hmm... It sounds silly, but I think I can call myself 'wiser' than I used to be. For instance, I haven't been in a flame war in years, have I..? Although I used to enjoy these, I've just lost interest in fighting against windmills and other trolls under the bridge. There are more important things in life. Like Wedge, for instance. This is something worthy of our attention.
I can also attribute my 'wisdom' to having had a successful project (Kyodai Mahjongg), and therefore, not having much else to 'prove' with regards to my talent and sense of detail. "Been there, done that, what else?" -- to me, Wedge is just something of the same quality, no one has to confirm it to me, we've been building something fantastic, although it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but it doesn't matter, we built what we felt was missing in the web community.

So... Long story short, I had no problems with your idea, and in fact, I had no problems with your implementation, either. But did you discuss it so much in depth that you described specifically how you wanted to move the PM strings into the PM language files, rather than in the Notifications language file? If yes, then I want you to show me... Because that's basically the point where you snapped and I never got to understand why you'd snap for something so unimportant. Really, so unimportant that not only do I have no qualms in you reverting it for me, I actually encourage you to revert anything of me you don't like, as long as you think there's a good reason for it. It's called mutual trust...

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The problem is - and to be honest this is something that I'd suggest the Elk guys take note of - optimisation generally implies you've done all the main stuff for now and aren't actively rewriting it.
I don't optimize at the end of the process. Live with it. At the end of the process, I fix bugs, and I leave it alone. (Granted, I should be documenting new features, that's what's missing right now.)
But I just don't do that. I optimize on the fly, it's not something I call optimization, it's just something that makes sense to me. We have a script file that I absolutely, adamantly want to keep as short as possible, because it saves tons of gigabytes of bandwidth, and also makes Wedge faster, and I like Wedge to feel fast. When I add new JS features, I always have to choose a careful balance between the feature's interest, and how light it is. For instance, I spent something like a month on SBox, and in the end, the final product was barely above 2 kilobytes once gzipped, which is something like 20% of the competition's equivalent code. Being shorter, it runs faster, and just better. Seen anyone complain about this..? My fight isn't against features, it's against unnecessary bloat.
So, when you added so many lines of code to script.js for the feature, my first reaction was 'wow, is that really necessary?', then 'is it me, or this is very similar to the Notification code?', and then I started building a generic function around it. After finishing it, I tested it, and realized I only saved 80 gzipped bytes, and maybe it just wasn't worth it. So I reverted my code, before any commits were in the air for it. I documented that. The changes I made to your JS were really, really minor: (1) I moved your function above another one, so that it could be declared as a local function, and save 4 bytes in the process. Not much, but it's a free saving. (2) I fixed a comment typo ('clink'), which I don't remember if it's from me or you. Probably me. (3) I fixed a bug in the auto-refresh code, where you were testing for the 'count' variable, instead of 'items(1)', if my memory serves. (I'd use square brackets, but I have keyboard problems, right now.)
To me, it's not worth shouting at me... So, what else? I think the only thing that remains is the fact that I moved some of your code to the Notifications files, which, as I learned later, you didn't like.
But I'm not the one who came up with the Notif language files, or decided to load everything on each page load, etc... I was only following the guideline that Dragooon established himself. If you wanted to fix that, you could have done in the many months that this has been in the codebase. I never noticed any urge to fix it from you, and as a result, I simply never thought of notifications as a 'memory/time-eating process'.

And again: yes, do revert whatever you don't like in my commits. If you feel bad about it, just wink at me before, or ask for my approval if you really must. But even commit reversals can be reversed as well, it's the beauty of CVS systems after all: nothing is set is stone, you can do whatever you want with the code...

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Rewriting JS *regularly* to shave individual bytes off here and there, as well as rewriting CSS regularly... these are things normally reserved for beta once all the core dev is out the way.
I haven't been rewriting much of these...! At least not for months.
I'm only fixing stuff, from time to time. Please find me a few examples.
The only thing I can think of, recently, is the postbg removal code... Which you suggested yourself!

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I've mentioned, numerous times, that all the skins I made were broken.
THAT much broken?

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Pretty much every break was not because core style was updated with new things but because it was rewritten to shave more bytes off.
Again, I'll need proof, because I ween (appropriate we-word) you're being a bit overdramatic about this, and haven't realized that the last time I broke skins was long ago.
(Sidebars, maybe..? Yes, sidebars are game-breaking, but that was to be expected, wasn't it..?)

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It's small wonder that in a year I've released 3 sites based on SMF and not Wedge for the sheer sake of not having to deal with that.
Export Wedge to new folder. FTP new folder into your website. Check install.sql log in the SVN, to see if any database structure changes were done in the meantime (doesn't happen very often). If no, leave alone, if yes, update manually in phpMyAdmin.
Update done.
Not only that, but eventually Wedge will have its own internal system to do database updates automatically, without any need to run phpMyAdmin...

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I said I was going to do it based on what I'd already talked about, and I assumed you knew what I meant. The trouble is, after I made it - and it worked exactly as I'd outlined, you decided that you didn't like how I'd written it and immediately started rewriting it. Partly structurally, partly aesthetically.
I still don't see what's wrong in doing what I did... The commit patch is something like a couple of kilobytes! The worst offender is the fact that I moved a function around (which in SVN always translates to a lot of data), without any changes to it.

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Had you come and spoken to me about the changes, I would have been OK, but it wasn't. It was straight up you changing it because it didn't suit your style of aesthetics.
I'm pretty much in charge of code conformity. I get the last word on this. John and Dragooon both know it -- I rewrote so much of their contributions. But I'd never be able to write their contributions in the first place (or at last take the time to do it). My rewrites aren't meant as a pointed finger, they're just me being absolutely anal about how the source code should look like (which is, basically: follow the original SMF guidelines, because I'm not going to stand for two different ways of writing code in the same source files.)
And I rewrite my own code a lot, too!
Not only that, but my feeling with you, is that in the years we worked together, you'd totally nailed it. It's been years since we've been in agreement over this, and I usually don't have anything to fix. Frankly, if you're upset over me doing three miserable single-line changes to a big commit you just made, the problem is not with me, at this point.

If you just needed a reason to leave the project, you could have done it more elegantly.
You know, like my ex did...
"I'm moving out, can you please keep my cat? There's no room in my place."
(Later on, she kidnapped the cat for some reason.)

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It was my first proper commit after two months out and I come back to have it dissected and pulled apart. I didn't exactly feel appreciated by that. It just made me feel as though I'd turned in some half-baked work and it wasn't good enough.
Your commits are always appreciated. Especially this one, I liked it a lot. But since it's front-end related, I had to put in my grain of salt. For instance, I didn't see why the <pms> block should be in the skeleton, if the <notifs> block wasn't. So I moved the pms declaration in, but obviously, you could have requested me to do it the other way around, and put <notifs> into the skeleton.xml file. Whatever works... I originally added notifs 'manually', because it gives me more freedom as to where the block should be placed in case a layer is missing, but in the end I could have have it in skeleton.xml just as well -- it's a powerful system, as simple as that...

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I don't object to the changes so much. I object more to the fact that you're just rewriting it without at least checking with me about what I had in mind at the time.
Because I *thought* you'd consider my changes to be harmless.
Of course, any time I wanted to rewrite one of your bigger things, I discussed it with you beforehand..!
And when I rewrite something, I usually document the reason in the changelog, too...

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Only I've had that feeling pretty much the last three years. I accepted I was inadequate and tried to do better in future. I can't live up to your expectations, and that's how it is.
And I can't live up to yours, either... So there's always going to be some frustration in us working together, but look at what we achieved... Wedge is all the better for it. Are you really not proud about what we did as a team? We may have had our moments, but don't you think that everyone has to go through this, when working with someone else? It's like a married couple, really... You have to work on it, too.

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The thing is, when I sent you that big long PM,
And you know I have a problem with long PMs and long posts, right...? Reading them, all right, hard but doable, but answering them... It's horrible for me. I hate typing on a keyboard, these days. I just can't focus any more, I'm too old for this fudge nuggets. That's why I suggested we start talking together by web-phone. I even installed Google Hangouts on my S3 the day before you quit. I was planning to ask you to get in touch that way, since there's a Mac client for it or something... Because the good thing with real life conversations, is that when you ask something, you get an answer immediately. And my full attention.

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I tried to explain this feeling, that I've not been happy with it, that I've not been able to live up to your expectations. And yes, if you want to put it like that, I have been lying to you. I've been so afraid of telling you how I really feel, because I always considered it my fault that I couldn't live up to your expectations, that I didn't want to work on things because I was both afraid of having it all rewritten yet again and/or not in line with what you wanted.
Really, I don't see where you're pulling that from... It makes me sound like I systematically rewrote all of your contributions. Considering you sent close to a thousand commits (I can't remember right now), it would be silly on my part to waste so much time rewriting something that doesn't need a rewrite...!

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Oh, I'm well aware I have problems. My problem is that I can't fit your ideal.
We're not *actually* married, you know...? O:-)

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I've never been able to, and I can't cope with trying to any more. So when you pull apart my first commit in months, I couldn't handle it. I'm sorry I overreacted, but by the same stroke, none of what came out yesterday should have been news to anyone. I even tried to tell you this and couldn't manage it.
If you were really sorry, you wouldn't be acting this way. You'd be working on being more straightforward with me, *before* doing anything too silly. Before throwing away three years of work, because I still don't know how I'm going to manage Wedge by myself.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on August 25, 2013, 06:35:31 pm
Part 2... (Apparently, Elk doesn't like posts with more than 20KB of contents... Why not rename it to twitter and be done with? :P)

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None of this is new. It's been outlined numerous times on wedge.org. A long time ago we stopped communicating.
A long time ago, you started posting too many posts everywhere, and I started to be behind on everything, and I told you I wouldn't read the posts unless you pointed me to them individually.

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Mind you, since you want full disclosure, I guess now's the time to point out a certain other home truth. There are multiple people who have come to me and said that they have feedback which was duly provided but they felt like they couldn't tell you their opinions.
Of course...  ::) Easy to say. I want proof. Names, situations, reasons.

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I understand that only too well - so yes, I omitted certain truths because I genuinely felt it was better for you not to know.
Because I can't handle a little criticism? What am I, a wimp?! (Another appropriate word..?)

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In fact the only 'system' I think I ever managed to implement was to use some object orientation, which you took and ran with far beyond anything I'd ever imagined.
What, you mean the weSkeleton object..? That was just me learning the basics. Now I can use objects, yes. Yay. No, the 'system' I was talking to, was really more about... keeping up with you, and accepting that your ideas are sometimes not compatible with mine, and that I may have to ignore my own ideas and embrace your implementations. You know, like... Having a colorful admin homepage, or plenty of wizards, or phasing out the approved bit... These things don't work well with *me*, but I took you and the community into consideration, and never opposed them being committed.
Considering I used to be my 100% own boss, I had to work on lot on that...
Plus, generally, you taught me plenty of things. Like being careful about security issues. I didn't care, originally. I didn't see beyond basic user input and whatever. See what I did last week with the security fix I posted? You approved it... That was me, adapting to your system, and innocently seeking your approval.

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Why do you think I only committed infrequently?
Because you lost interest in Wedge long ago... I can imagine that. You always had more projects on the back-burner. Personally, I dropped everything to work on Wedge, and I've spent the last three years on it, exclusively. No one be more focused than I am -- after all, I did spent nearly 10 years working on a silly puzzle game, when most developers work on these things for a few months, and then do some other game that will bring them more income. I just didn't care about the money, I cared about making the perfect product. I wanted to do the same for Wedge, and I still do. But that also means I understand why anyone else than me would be less focused. I'm used to it.

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I tried to get everything right before I committed, and screwed that up many times, but if I sincerely waited with 'will Nao be OK with this?' before I committed, I believe I'd never have committed anything.
And I'd have been against it, too..!
Why use a CVS if we can't make commits on a whim..?!

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For example, the admin panel revamp, you weren't keen on, and we met in the middle about it
In the middle? I thought you'd gone all the way through it...  ;D
Seriously, what did you give up on...? Not removing the admin menu, maybe..? I think most people were against the idea, though...

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- but I've always kind of thought that was you just going with it because you didn't have anything better.
Well, to me, 'better' in this case was the original SMF admin homepage, but... ^^;

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The moderation filters stuff, you've said you're not happy with... but again neither of us had anything better.
My 'better' in this case, is simply not to disable the approved bit on posts... And allow for a 'Hide this post' button, as a quick way for moderators to hide a post before asking the admin for their decision.

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Warnings/infractions... same deal, really.
Hey, I was alright with these..?!
The only thing I complained about, was the lack of unity in how these were all named. I'm not sure I fixed the English strings, but I tried to do it in French. Other than that, err... I dunno, what was wrong? What did I say about it? The ban system was alright, too..? Maybe it made everything a bit more complicated, but in this case you tried for completeness, rather than simplicity, I think... And the wizard is a straightforward process, too. I would like an alternative to ban multiple users, but until the day I really need it, it's not that big a deal... I guess!

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In fact, I think the only thing that you never really touched, pulled apart or complained about was the plugin manager, and that was because of your stated dislike of writing plugins.
I never liked writing mods, either...!
In fact, over time I really grew to love your plugin system. It's one of the best things you ever did on Wedge, among many other awesome things.

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I never demanded anything of you. I never expected anything of you. I expected more of myself and was found wanting. So yes, the problem is mine. Which is why I made the choice I did. Is that really so wrong?
It's not wrong to leave Wedge if you're not feeling it anymore. It's wrong to put the blame on something (or someone!) else, even if it's easier for you.

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We're not exactly on the best of speaking terms, because one or other of us stopped listening a long time ago, and you can't fix a problem when you're not on speaking terms.
I don't know where you're getting this from, but I never, EVER saw us as "not being on speaking terms"...
I saw you as "difficult to be online with at the same time", because for some reason you decided you liked night better and tuned yourself to the US timezone, I saw you as difficult to follow because you're posting too much for my taste, in too many different places, but whenever I sent you a PM asking for something, I always, always got a reply within 24 hours, which isn't something you could say about me...! (Mainly for the reason explained above: it's excrutiatingly hard for me to type on a keyboard for more than 5 minutes straight. It may be a medical problem, or attention-deficit disorder, I don't know, but it's really hard for me, and has always been, at least these last 5-10 years.)

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I know that you've been wanting to make Wedge a full-fledged CMS for some time,
I thought that was you...  :D
What I wanted to do was improve blog support in Wedge, and possibly add support for a 'site' type, but I always saw it as just a natural evolution of forums, which isn't the same as a 'proper' CMS where you mostly manipulate static pages.
As for you, I thought that your current work on a SMF portal (?!) was related to testing CMS features for Wedge... So, whatever.

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Actually, yes you did. I wanted to make the forum a module and you said no to it. To me having a CMS implies having the forum as part of the puzzle but not the 800lb gorilla in the room.
A module or a plugin?
I don't really see how it could have worked out...

And no, I'm not against the idea, I just don't know what could be provided in its place...!

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Several of the other things I've talked about that tie into that were all things you've never been keen on. (Menu manager, page functionality)
So... You want a CMS or not? ^^

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What removal of the approved column? I was going to rename it and add more stuff to the same flag (to cover deleted as well) but never remove it. Removing it would mean removing post moderation and that isn't going to happen.
You know-- there's a single line in the commit you made, that disables post_approve (or a similarly name variable) if no moderation filters are enabled. Which meant, of course, that performance was better, but it also meant that if you wanted to approve/unapprove posts, you first had to create a dummy moderation filter, which I never understood...

That's what I complained (and still complain?) about... I just wanted to have some switch out there, to enable post moderation without having to actually make a dummy filter.

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I never talked about them because I believed that you wouldn't listen if I pointed them out, or because I was too afraid of hurting your feelings.
Hey, I'm 38, I've seen it all. Feelings are *made* to be hurt! Which means you still have a heart. ;D
What's wrong, of course, is when you keep resentment over this...
Ever seen any movie where a psychiatrist tells a husband or wife that they should complain every time they have an issue, rather than keep it all inside and end up exploding at some point..? You've got the basics. I'm a grown-up, I can take criticism, especially when it has a background.

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Empathy may not be my strongest point, but listening sure as hell isn't yours. Did you notice I *specifically* told you to take it easy on coding?
I'm not a great listener, for sure. But yes, I do remember you saying that...
Still, what I'm complaining about, is that even after you told me to take it easy, you went ahead and dropped this bomb on me... My life is already a mess right now, and now I can't even stop bothering my girl with these stories because, "what am I gonna do now?!"...

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I'm not great at empathy, I'm a geek with autistic tendencies. But it was your RL stuff that made it clear that things couldn't go on. If you want to look at it the way you're looking at it, I couldn't keep lying to you. I couldn't keep it together. I don't see it the same way you do, I don't actually see it as lying to you, I see it as trying to rationalise everything as my fault and my inability to adapt to you and not telling you that I failed miserably with that. But I couldn't do that any more.
So, why didn't you just comment on my (private) offer to fork Wedge into two codebases, one for you, one for me, where we'd be free to apply 100% of our vision, while trying to keep 95% of them in sync? You seem shocked at the idea, even though I only made a very soft suggestion about it. Right now, I don't get why you'd feel shocked, when it actually would have solved all your problems, really...?!

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I don't know whether it's that I can't work with you, or you can't work with me, or what it is, but I know that the team just doesn't work any more. And I'm sorry, because we had a lot of fun and built some really cool stuff - but I've had the feeling for too long that we were indulging our personal desires rather than actually building things that other people would use.
I just applied the same formula as what I did for Kyodai Mahjongg and Aeva Media... "I have a dream. Let's do it. I'm sure some people will like it." Tens of thousands did, apparently.

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This is why I said that if you were to release Wedge now that people would be disappointed. But that's another truth I masked for too long to spare your feelings.
No, actually, you said something in the same lines a few months ago, but I have to disagree -- a public beta right now wouldn't be too soon. It would be late by about two years, actually! And it would still hold the contents we wrote for three years, and that's not something to be ashamed of. I can point out at least 20 good reasons why any forum owner would want to switch to Wedge. And if the price to pay is that the thing is a little bit undocumented and rough over the edges, you know what...? They'll still be gently caress happy they made the switch!
(I'm sorry, Elk team, the same probably applies to you, I don't really look at your codebase ^^)

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Ultimately, I've done the one thing that, to me, represented the best for Wedge's development - I removed myself from it, because it's clear from this that you wouldn't be able to trust me, and besides why would you want me to contribute knowing that every commit I write, you're going to rewrite anyway.
Your views are distorted, right now.
And if anything, please remember that there are so many areas in Wedge that totally need your support: maintaining plugin code, Bad Behavior rules, keeping an eye on general security, so many things like that off the top of my head... And most importantly, I need someone to be bitchy about my own additions! Most people will hit Like on everything I do, and it's important for me, but it's also important to have unbiased opinions on what I'm doing wrong...!

That's all I had to say, really....
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on August 26, 2013, 03:36:38 am
/me munches on popcorn.

Was there a cover fee for this event or something? Or is it just the old 'courtesy to buy a drink' standard?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on August 26, 2013, 10:17:04 am
/me munches on popcorn.

Was there a cover fee for this event or something? Or is it just the old 'courtesy to buy a drink' standard?
Proud of yourself, maaan?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on August 26, 2013, 02:53:47 pm

/me munches on popcorn.

Was there a cover fee for this event or something? Or is it just the old 'courtesy to buy a drink' standard?
Proud of yourself, maaan?

Not quite, I don't think my drama is as annoying as yours is yet. I'll keep working on it, though.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on August 26, 2013, 03:09:07 pm
Lots of love to you, too.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on August 31, 2013, 10:06:48 am
Apart from the "my account" VS "{user name}", I don't remember if I already proposed it, so I do it now. :P
At the moment there are 3 buttons related to "recent activity":
* recent posts (under "community"),
* new posts
* new replies
Why not merge them together into one tlb (top level button O:-)) with a drop of three elements?
Dunno: "recent", "updates", "unread", "fresh air", "things that happened in the last period and you may not be yet aware of", something like that. :P

Also about "new posts": I like it more than the "unread replies since your last visit" (or whatever it was), but I tend to read it like "new post" (i.e. click here to start a new post/topic). Is it only me?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 02, 2013, 12:57:08 am
Because it would introduce an extra step to using the most heavily used functionality, which doesn't seem like a good idea to me. My 2c is that the most heavily used stuff should be right there and usable with one click. Droppies (IMO) should be for stuff you might want sometimes, but don't want all the time.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: [SiNaN] on September 02, 2013, 06:12:10 am
I agree with that. I think it should be easily accessible.

However, wording is a little confusing indeed. Maybe "Unread Posts" and "Unread Replies" would work better?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 02, 2013, 06:27:49 am
They are unread because they are new, yes? :D
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: IchBin on September 02, 2013, 07:10:10 pm

They are unread because they are new, yes? :D

Too confusing with "New Post" if you ask me.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 02, 2013, 11:58:02 pm
Ok, I'm not that fussed about it. Anyone can change the language strings if they want to. I wont argue.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 12, 2013, 10:52:02 am
Bumpity! ;D

K, so you demented monkeys want the user area hidden somewhere strange, right?

And we're going back to separate Admin and Mod tabs for the main menu, yes?

Anything else?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on September 12, 2013, 04:16:43 pm
Well, my argument is that the profile stuff is not part of the 'site' stuff, if that makes sense. Site content is the site's (so all the normal menu stuff should be attach to the 'site') while profile, PMs and user area stuff should be out of that because it's not really part of the site.

I'd also go and argue that admin and mod tabs should be taken out of the site main menu for the same reason, they're not site content as such.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: IchBin on September 12, 2013, 08:47:12 pm

Well, my argument is that the profile stuff is not part of the 'site' stuff, if that makes sense. Site content is the site's (so all the normal menu stuff should be attach to the 'site') while profile, PMs and user area stuff should be out of that because it's not really part of the site.

I'd also go and argue that admin and mod tabs should be taken out of the site main menu for the same reason, they're not site content as such.

^ Wot he sed
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 12, 2013, 10:31:29 pm
I really do think you're getting too carried away if you also want to hide admin and mod tabs eslewhere. To my mind, that would be just dogma for the sake of dogma and just plain annoying.

What on earth is wrong with having menu functionallity in a menu? All of these buttons just link to various parts of the site. Yes, parts of the site. That's what they all do. Admin is still "site stuff" because action=admin is as much a part of the site as action=forum.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on September 12, 2013, 10:40:01 pm
SMF is the only forum platform that puts the admin and moderation links in the main site navigation menu like that. You can't tell me that all the others are just copying each other in not doing it that way.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 12, 2013, 10:45:14 pm
My argument still applies.

Ok then, where do you propose hiding admin and mod stuff? Bearing in mind that presumably you'll want to keep the visible notifications for various things in admin and mod, which means you presumably will want those tabs in a prominent location.

Main menu is kinda prominent yes? And also means not yet another pile of stuff cluttering up the place, right? So?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on September 12, 2013, 10:56:27 pm
I'd actually put them up where the search bar is now, and I'd bring that back down out of the header into the area where the content is...

I just wouldn't put the admin/mod buttons next to the actual other buttons. Mind you, the Elk layout does make it difficult to explain where this stuff should go by comparison to other systems. Most other systems put a bar at the top of the screen where the profile, inbox, and admin/mod stuff lives - out of the way of the core site stuff itself.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 12, 2013, 11:05:30 pm
Well IPB does it that way. vB always used to hide admin stuff at the bottom of the page or somewhere, IIRC. Honestly though, I'm not that impressed with the IPB gui in general, and personally am not inclined to duplicate it just for the sake of duplicating it.

So, basically you want two rows of buttons up top. Admin and mod over at the left in top row. Some generic username-labelled button over at the right in the top row, with a whole lot of stuff under it in a droppy. Then the usual menu (or what's left of it) in the current location on a second row.

Then presumably the search form in one line above the linktree stuff. Which means I suppose that for non-admins and non-mods the current search form location would have to be filled up with the date/time (which I did try before and I can tell you it doesn't look as good, which is why I moved it).

I can visualise what you are suggesting, but I honestly cannot see how it would be better in terms of either looks or functionality.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 12, 2013, 11:14:25 pm
Ok, thought. If we are going with the user stuff up the top right, then presumably the log out button would be somewhere there too (probably in a user droppy). So, we could split Admin and Mod tabs over to the right of the menu bar, where log out sits at the moment. That way it wouldn't be necessary to re-jig the whole theme, which IMO is a good thing since it already looks good and works.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on September 12, 2013, 11:27:54 pm
Random question: why do we need the current date/time anyway?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 13, 2013, 12:09:35 am
At the moment it's really just a placeholder. I'd always assumed that people would put icons for their YouTube, Twitter, etc up there.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on September 13, 2013, 12:43:33 am
No strong feeling.
At a certain point I thought that the menu bar was mostly useless, though now seems a bit better and more useful.

The admin/moderate could stay combined I think.
The only thing I would change in the account part, inverting profile-related and personal messaging (i.e. have account settings, forum profile and look and layout as "primary" dropdown and then "personal messages" with the second level droppy) because "my account" reminds me of the "settings" in general and not about the "personal messages" (that are part of the account, but not the primary part of the account). More semantic than usefulness.

Also I'm not sure the account should go somewhere else, otherwise the menu comes back to be a bit useless...
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 13, 2013, 12:51:19 am
But that doesn't fit with the way people actually use it. Profile stuff is 90% set and forget (apart from looking up your posts, or changing your avatar occasionally). PM's is what people use day to day. That makes PM's primary functionality, IMHO.

OTOH, we do have PM notifications and access via Display.template now so bleh n wtf n stuff.

ETA: And I think there was general agreement that we were going back to seperate Admin and Mod buttons, which I'm fine with (it does make some things easier).
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on September 13, 2013, 12:55:24 am
By that logic all the other systems (including that pesky little website Facebook) are all doing it wrong?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 13, 2013, 01:00:51 am
That wouldn't surprise me at all, given the amount people complain about FB's interface. :D

Ok, how about this? Top level is username and avatar, linked to profile summary page as usual. This is obviously effin' useless, because 99% of people don't care what's on their profile summary page 99% of the time, but it's conventional so it must be good.

First linky in droppy is the same, for ease of use with click menus. Second link in droppy links to PM's (inbox page). Third link in droppy is log out. No other links in droppy. Let's keep it simple.

Also, if there are unread PM's have the little green thingy with the number in it on the top level (preferably directly linked to inbox with no shenanigans required).
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on September 13, 2013, 01:03:16 am
But that doesn't fit with the way people actually use it. Profile stuff is 90% set and forget (apart from looking up your posts, or changing your avatar occasionally). PM's is what people use day to day. That makes PM's primary functionality, IMHO.
I didn't say that PM are not the primary functionality, I agree with that (i.e. the actual usefulness), but what I wanted to say is that to me, when I read "My Account" the emphasis, in my mind, is on the "setting" and not on the messaging (so, more about "semantic").

Of course it may be just me, as I said I don't have strong feelings. ;)

ETA: and of course there is my very routine-bound brain that needs some time to pick up with changes... lol
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 13, 2013, 01:09:40 am
K. Well I'll have a go at whipping something up, then we can kick it around a bit.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on September 13, 2013, 01:27:01 am
Sounds good to me :) I may be a stubborn git but I'm curious to see what you come up with because it's quite likely you'll improve on what I think (because I'm no designer :P)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on September 13, 2013, 07:40:50 am
Random question: why do we need the current date/time anyway?
Links all relative dates in a cached page to the actual date they're relative to.

Ie if dates aren't auto updated, it's crucial.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Arantor on September 13, 2013, 04:00:15 pm
That might hold up if SMF hadn't also been doing it for the previous decade.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on September 13, 2013, 05:46:59 pm
Back in 2003 it was commonplace to show that a site was not 'static' by printing the date. Some would even show the date via js to make it look like it wasn't a pure HTML page... ^^
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on September 13, 2013, 08:27:25 pm
And then later on several blogs stopped having a date at all...

/me hates that because then you can't know when the message was posted: if a month ago or 10 years... lol
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 13, 2013, 10:53:40 pm
Well presumably, as long as their server is running, any dates would be relative to the current (which you should know anyway since your pooter has a clock built in).

If we grab the current date/time area for user stuffz that could still leave the date/time for lurkers, if anyone thinks it is important to have that.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on September 13, 2013, 11:21:34 pm
Well presumably, as long as their server is running, any dates would be relative to the current (which you should know anyway since your pooter has a clock built in).

If we grab the current date/time area for user stuffz that could still leave the date/time for lurkers, if anyone thinks it is important to have that.
I meant that if you're visiting a previously loads tab you haven't visited in hours, the date can help. Unless of course the timestamps are refreshed regularly but that sucks performance wise.

Ema, blogs that don't show the date usually still have a hint about it. Eg in the URL, or in the HTML source. (Sigh. Been there, pestered at that.)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 13, 2013, 11:42:01 pm
Fair nuff. I'm easy about whether we have the timestamp or not. Doesn't bother me either way. I'm happy just with relative because it's very rarely that I need to know the exact time something was posted.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on September 14, 2013, 12:09:45 am
Ema, blogs that don't show the date usually still have a hint about it. Eg in the URL, or in the HTML source. (Sigh. Been there, pestered at that.)
Those that I usually find, no, not a single one... lol
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on September 14, 2013, 10:13:40 am
You need to try harder... hacker or not? :P
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: live627 on September 15, 2013, 05:51:16 am
Why are the profile links grandchildren? Me no like.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on September 16, 2013, 04:22:35 am

Why are the profile links grandchildren? Me no like.

Indeed, for a menu link that says My Account, the top level links have nothing to do with things that I associate with my account. I get the idea to combine Messages and Profile stuff, but My Account makes me think first of my forum account, not my PMs.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on September 16, 2013, 07:38:40 am
Not a problem. We can just rename it "My Shiz" to cover all bases.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on September 17, 2013, 03:56:22 pm

Not a problem. We can just rename it "My Shiz" to cover all bases.

As long as one of those buttons is Harass Antechinus, then that's totally fine.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on October 06, 2013, 10:15:09 pm
I think Ant mentioned something similar somewhere, but I can't find it, so I'm adding some off topic here. :P

Admin/profile/moderation menus: would be difficult (or terribly... inappropriate) to have all the possible options of the currently selected menu always visible in an horizontal bar?
Something like the attachment.
I'm not sure it's the best option, because we'd have...4 level of menus visible at the same time, though it may be nice...dunno.

Just an idea.
And if you have some of your magic css to throw at me to understand how my own proposal would work in real life, feel free to drop it here. O:-)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on October 08, 2013, 11:44:32 pm
Yup, so basically you want a sort of push down dropline clicky to open sort of menu thingy. Of sorts. Sort of. Or its brother or his best friend's cousin twice removed or Aunt Martha's Special Sauce. Something like that.

If people really want it, it can be done. Does enough people really want it? Reason I ask is because it already works, which is kinda good y'know.

Current thought: leave it for custom themers. Gotta leave them something to feel clever about.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: IchBin on October 09, 2013, 08:10:51 pm
Cool stuff ema. I like that quite a bit. I'm ok with whatever though. Can always customize theme stuff pretty easily.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on October 09, 2013, 09:32:43 pm
Well, the idea was just to have the choices of the current section always visible, nothing too fancy, nothing too important, just an idea.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on October 10, 2013, 04:57:05 am
Did we want to do this? https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/commit/57cde67614de4811d053a8e17db59a7025760a41 I think it was proposed on wedge at some point, may be there as well as there has been some recent cross pollination.  Looks nice, but I'm not sure how often admins navigate from the main admin page, so the above menu stuff from Ema may be a better quick access method.

.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on October 10, 2013, 05:43:05 am
TBH I really (and I mean really) cannot see anything wrong with the current sidebar menu or drop menu system for quick access. Particularly the sidebar, since it effectively does exactly what Ema is proposing anyway. Do we really need to complicate things further?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Nao on October 10, 2013, 08:50:06 am
Actually Pete implemented that in Wedge years ago and I never liked it. Or used it. I left it in because my POV was that we each knew what we were doing. Anyway, I'm thinking of removing it in the future.
The only thing he did in the homepage that I looked was the tutorial, ie links to important areas for initial setup. I even added a few links to it and improved it a bit. That one is a keeper.

Anyone wants to see the Wedge codebase, or some kind of Admin demo, I'm open to that.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on October 10, 2013, 02:24:42 pm
Looks nice, but I'm not sure how often admins navigate from the main admin page
Yeah, it's nice to see, but I hate those pages full of icons and since it's on the main page it's kind of not so useful because to see it, it's necessary to go back to the main admin page similarly to cPanel... and I hate that. :P

TBH I really (and I mean really) cannot see anything wrong with the current sidebar menu or drop menu system for quick access. Particularly the sidebar, since it effectively does exactly what Ema is proposing anyway. Do we really need to complicate things further?
Yep, no problems, but at some point it may be interesting to simplify even further and remove one of the two options (sidebar/dropdown) could be the way, and I was wondering how this could work in replacement of the two current menus, nothing more. ;)
I wouldn't change it *now* myself, I'm not convinced about it 100%, I was interested in seeying it "live" to have a better understanding, but I'm not able to find a way to obtain it so I asked...
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on October 10, 2013, 10:40:33 pm
Ah. Ok, no worries. Well can play around with it a bit if you like. I haven't given it any thought yet, but it shouldn't be that hard. All you are really doing is re-formatting the sidebar menu categories for a different look, if you see what I mean.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TestMonkey on October 21, 2013, 10:07:07 pm
Oh well. I didn't read replies here for a while, I'll just share my thoughts after all this experiment on the menu.

It's not ok to click on Account and get to PMs. It's not OK to click on a main menu (Account, and Admin), and get to TWO different areas.

Main menu item = area.

A matter of usability, of natural user expectation, no matter what you felt/brainstormed about when you coded it.

So, please lets bring back two menu items for each of those, or merge the areas. I say 1).
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 09, 2013, 10:51:48 pm
At the moment I sent a PR that splits PMs and profile back, I didn't touch admin/moderate, because TBH I don't find it *that* bad.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 12, 2013, 02:47:52 pm
I was playing a bit, nothing too serious (considering also I just put together the images with gimp :P).

What would you think of something like the first attachment where the image image is a toggle between the normal login and open id?
(http://www.elkarte.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=492.0;attach=457;image)

And move the "My account" to the left instead of the "Log out" that could become the last element of the "My account"?
(http://www.elkarte.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=492.0;attach=459;image)

ETA: related to:
https://github.com/elkarte/Elkarte/issues/710

ETA2: the move of the "log out" somewhere relatively more hidden is just because I personally do not use it that much, most of the times I'm logged in "forever" and don't even care to log out unless I have to try a second account (thing that nowadays I can do with a "private" browser window so I don't even need to log out at all).
I'm not sure how other people are using the logout button, so it may be I'm in minority (as usual :P), so opinions on the usage of that button are welcome! ;D
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TE on November 12, 2013, 03:02:58 pm
great, where's the Pull request? ;D
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 12, 2013, 03:04:35 pm
It's just an image, I can send it, but I don't know if it would work... :P
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on November 12, 2013, 04:33:20 pm
I like that quite a bit :) 

The My Account with log out inside that pulldown, thats more consistent with other GUI's I think.  Also people want to get to their stuff first so logout does not have to be that prominently displayed or take up top level real estate.

great, where's the Pull request? ;D
What he said :)
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 12, 2013, 06:32:15 pm
Check it out ans see if you really like it. :P
https://github.com/elkarte/Elkarte/pull/1017
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Aaron on November 12, 2013, 11:05:54 pm
Just throwing in an idea: perhaps even go as far as to change the label 'My account' to the user's name, and maybe even a small version of their avatar? Then the whole "hello_ndt" bit next to the news could be dropped altogether, too.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 12, 2013, 11:36:50 pm
The name was suggested a while ago in this topic, dunno...I'm not so sure (do note I do not use social networks and so I have no idea what people expect).

About the avatar, I was thinking to try that too, but based on a comment by forumsearch0r few days ago on how difficult to see was (is?) the very small avatar next to the messages in mobile-form theme I thought it may result in a too small image to be actually useful.

Well, let's see it in place: the "welcome blabla" at the top is the one in the PR, while the small one next to "my account" in the menu item is just an image I added "on-the-fly".
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on November 13, 2013, 04:23:26 am
The favAvatar is not bad and the only one who sees it is, well you, and you know what your avatar looks like even when small.  For the mobile view we could drop it with one of the media querys so you don't end up with something even smaller than a favIcon.  

I can go either way on the my account vs name, I kind of lean towards my account but can't give any reason other than thats my preference.  Of course using something from social media is  a good way to go, it will be "familiar" to many users, and thats a large user base.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 13, 2013, 06:26:00 pm
We can try. :P

Updated the PR with the attached.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TE on November 13, 2013, 07:13:10 pm
Yeah, it's better  :D
I've been playing with your branch too, and the thing I don't like is the toggle between Login and OpenID.. I think the cleanest version would be to just place the login there and a small openID image with a hyperlink to action=login.. OpenID is cool but it's probably rarely used.

Here's my current version:
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 13, 2013, 10:49:02 pm
/me waits for a PR from TE at his repo. :P
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 14, 2013, 12:54:22 am
One technical reason I can think in order to avoid the name in the menu item: "my account" is a fixed thing, while the name could be smaller, but also wider. And if the name is "big" there would be only two options: 1) cut it, 2) let it break the template.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TE on November 14, 2013, 08:29:46 am
 need to clean my meanwhile screwed repo first.. It might be good, to make it configurable using the username or the plain "my account" text. I'll add this as on option in a PR.

I'm currently @ work, I'll send you a PR later this day..
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: TE on November 14, 2013, 10:25:13 pm
PR https://github.com/elkarte/Elkarte/pull/1029 (https://github.com/elkarte/Elkarte/pull/1029),
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 17, 2013, 10:31:11 am
I'd say we are now done with this, right?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on November 17, 2013, 10:18:37 pm
Looks unbalanced. Would be better to have the account stuff where the search is now, and put the search back where it was.

ETA; And why is PM's over at the left in the main menu, but the account button over at the right? Doesn't make sense. If you want an account button, I'd roll it all into one (PM's and profile). Profile is rarely used anyway. People usually only want PM's.

ETA2: The new menu is borked for me too. Shows correctly on this page, but not on board index. Dunno what is going on there.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 17, 2013, 10:33:48 pm
I think it's a matter of cache cleaup.
I had to force refresh on several pages in order to get everything fixed...
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 18, 2013, 05:41:42 pm
Is it just me or the height of the "my account" button is two or three pixels more than the others?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on November 18, 2013, 06:06:20 pm
Looks like the avatar image max-height needs to be reduced just a touch
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 18, 2013, 06:52:22 pm
Memo: I think it would be nice to change min-width in .topic_latest from 34em to 20em or something smaller.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on November 18, 2013, 07:01:36 pm
What do you think about removing the view count from the topic view page?  The (read xxxx times) in the header, its already on the index, and here it tends to break the layout as you narrow your screen.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 18, 2013, 08:25:16 pm
Make sense I think.
At that point, I wonder about all the " previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Re: Linktree and Dropmen", maybe move them in the space below with the "emanuele and 0 Guests are viewing this topic. " to de-clutter the bar?
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Spuds on November 19, 2013, 12:30:26 am
Yup, they may help as well, does seem like that title bar is cluttered, and you really don't notice the navigation links in there so moving them down one space should help.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: emanuele on November 19, 2013, 08:13:08 am
I seem to remember Ant wanted to move them somewhere else, though I'm not sure where.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Antechinus on November 19, 2013, 08:40:04 am
Ant can't remember either. From memory, I thought the " previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Re: Linktree and Dropmen..." biz was a mess because it reads as if the next topic is derived from "Re: Linktree and Dropmen..." if you see what I mean.

My current 2c would be to move the next and previous topic links down to the who is viewing bar. That might work.
Title: Re: New menu arrangement: Community - Staff - Personal
Post by: Xarcell on November 22, 2013, 12:27:34 am
I didn't get to vote, but I say "Manage" and "username".